AIHA or IMHA

Kassie

Anyways. That is enough of that. I don't know that I'll stay on top of this terribly well. It is difficult.

Kassie

I understand.  Maybe in the future you might feel like comming back and share memories about Meeka when that becomes something that actually feels good to do.

When Cyclops was 4 years old my rescue dog, Takona died.  We were visiting my parents in Michigan and she went suddenly but she was 8 years old when I rescued her from Good Shepard in Eureka Springs.  We got 7 good years with her.  When we were looking for dogs at the Shelter she stood on her hind legs and pressed her entire body up against the chain fence and just begged to be adopted.  It was like she never forgot that we took her when no one else would because of her age.  Its hard to adopt an older dog because you know your heart is gonna break that much sooner.  Anyway all that is off topic.  What I was going to say is that Takona died and Cyclops got a chance to see the body and watch us bury her in the backyard.  In Michigan they actually have soft soil where you can dig holes with no problems.  Anyway, Cyclops understood what happened and it really helped her deal with it.  She didn't wonder where Takona was, she knew.  I am hoping that when its Cyclops' time that my little dog Domingo will be able to see her too.  Because she stressed out when Cyclops was gone for 10 days at the hospital.  She kept looking for Cyclops.  So my plan is to make sure Domingo knows what happened if at all possible.  

Kassie, do you know the store "Flying Possum Leather" on Dickson Street?  That is where we got Cyclops.  Bruce, the owner always had dogs in his store and one day when I was walking up Dickson I stopped in and he had a litter of border collie mix puppies.  He gave me Cyclops at 8 weeks old.  I used to stop in with her every few years - its been a while since I have done that but I'm curious if he knows if any of Cyclops' brothers and sisters had any problems.

By the way, my wife used to work as an accountant at the University when we were in Fayetteville.  

Good luck with the other pups and please feel free to send me a message anytime.

Mike

Kassie--I'm so sorry.  One of the most unfair things about this disease, IMO, is that you can't really ever say, "Well, this person or that person just tried harder and that's why this dog survived."  I mean, our vet told us about people who did nothing (no treatment), and their dogs didn't make it, but sometimes you try SO HARD and it works...and sometimes it doesn't.  One of the things that makes me angriest is that Emma probably got sick BECAUSE I was being so conscientious in doing all the things we're usually told to do, with vaccines and such!  It isn't fair, and it certainly isn't kind.  I'm so sorry about your Meeka.

Still praying for Cyclops, as well.  Our wonderful vet kept saying that her #1 indicator of how Ems was doing was the way she looked and behaved--so eventually I'd call and ask if she wanted to do another RBC and she'd ask, "How does she LOOK?"  We'd walk in and she'd just look at her and say, "Oh, she's fine"...as opposed to the "uh-oh" response we got when Ems was so bad, before she even did a blood draw (the last trip to the emergency vet, Ems almost collapsed in the regular vet's parking lot, they did a little dab of blood and didn't even run the paperwork when they took a look--just said "take her and go NOW";).

I know I'm babbling, sorry.  I'm currently on preds, myself, for sinus issues.  If Ems felt this crappy on that stuff, I feel even sorrier for her than I did then. :P

Oh, and for those scared about reducing the meds/increasing other meds--I WAS, TOO.  I questioned and second-guessed nearly every decision.  I guess I was probably a really good dog mommy but not such a good client for a bit, because I worried and read and asked if they were SURE they wanted to reduce the preds, or increase the cyclo (which was so hard on her and really expensive, too).  I really appreciated the suggestions of milk thistle (I'd squirt some in Stonyfield Farms organic yogurt--either the plain unsweetened or, if I had it for myself, the vanilla--with some sugar but no fake sweetener--and Emma thought it was the greatest) and Knox Nutrajoint.  Don't know whether the Nutrajoint helped or not, because I started it early enough that she hadn't really had a chance to develop the arthritic issues (kind of like Airborne for people, I think--you don't ever really know if it works or not!).  I also had Ems on Denamarin (Denosyl and Marin) for a long time to protect her liver/kidneys/whatever else I can't even remember.

It scares me to know that this CAN come back.  I mean, I'll never have her vaccinated again, but I feel like there's this time bomb way in the back of my mind, and I don't know whether the fuse is really out or not....

Love and prayers and puppy kisses to you all--

I really relate to everything you said about Ems.  When I complained to the vet at OSU about the Cyclosporine cost and the cost of getting a CBC every week she said to only do it once a month unless you feel something is wrong.  The problem is I get scared and take her anyway for one reason or another.  This time it was the nosebleed and the last time it was because I thought her color was more pale (it was just me). 

Got her CBC results today.  The plateletts were fine.  Hoping the nosebleed was just because of the dry nose.  Her PCV was 25.  I'll say one thing for her, she is stable.  She has been at this 25 number give or take a point since Dec 26th.  We just increased the cyclosporine so she hasn't been on the increased dose long enough to see any change yet.  I am hoping I can just hold out at least 2 weeks this time and go for the recheck.  I'm just so impatient wanting that number to get into at least the 30's.. but I have to remind myself to be thankful that at least its not dropping.

 I am on the Nutrajoint too as well as JointMax Triple Strength Glucosamine/Condroiten MSM pills.  Don't know if any of it does anything but I do it anyway.  Now that she has been taking these little walks each day she is so much more mobile.  I think just laying around made her weak and stiff. Oh and I am doing the Milk Thistle too.  2200mg per day.  They are 275mg pills and I give her 2 pills 4 times a day.  I hope its doing something good for her.

Nice to hear from you.   Please give Emma a big hug !

GratefulDawg

When I complained to the vet at OSU about the Cyclosporine cost and the cost of getting a CBC every week she said to only do it once a month unless you feel something is wrong.  The problem is I get scared and take her anyway for one reason or another.  This time it was the nosebleed and the last time it was because I thought her color was more pale (it was just me). 

Oh man -- and I thot *I* wrote that song!!!  When the dog starts to DUCK because you start to look at their mouth you know you're checking gums too often!!  *sigh* 

It's been 2 1/2 years now and we STILL panic!! 

BUT I WILL SAY THIS -- frankly, it's those of us who kinda panic and who react FAST who tend to have better luck with this.  The people who let the vet say "Oh it can wait until _______________" -- and they don't question?  IN my experience it's a mistake -- because honestlyyou usually don't HAVE days.  When they start to crash you have ... quite literally .... HOURS.

Gratefuldawg?  Honestly?  I'd love to see you double the milk thistle especially since going up on the cyclo.  Milk thistle is BEST as a *protectant*.  That dose is helping the liver but it's not enough to help the kidneys -- and those are every bit as much at risk.

calliecritturs

Gratefuldawg?  Honestly?  I'd love to see you double the milk thistle especially since going up on the cyclo.  Milk thistle is BEST as a *protectant*.  That dose is helping the liver but it's not enough to help the kidneys -- and those are every bit as much at risk.

 I miss the PRED!  

I'm sure that Cyclops dosen't miss it but she was so hungry on the Pred that I would just pull out my jar of hummus and dip the pill in it and she'd lick the glob of hummus off my finger and swallow the whole thing.  Now she is licking the hummus off but not swallowing the pill.  Yesterday for the first time I had to PILL HER and she hates it and I hate it.  My other dog the older rescue dog I had was so good about taking pills and never struggled.  What was once easy is now very hard.  Maybe I could give her more Milk Thistle by getting some powder and sprinking it on her food.  Because 8 pills a day of Milk Thistle and 4 pills of Cyclosporine = very difficult.  16 pills of Milk Thistle would be a nightmare!  I'll look online see if I find powder.

 The pred just made her so much easier to deal with.  But like I say I'm sure she's a lot more comfortable now not thinking she's starving all the time.  

GratefulDawg

Maybe I could give her more Milk Thistle by getting some powder and sprinking it on her food.  Because 8 pills a day of Milk Thistle and 4 pills of Cyclosporine = very difficult.  16 pills of Milk Thistle would be a nightmare!  I'll look online see if I find powder.

  Maybe you could ask your vet about Marin; http://www.nutramaxlabs.com/products/animal/liver/documents/MarinBrochure.pdf;

 Silybin is the most active component of
silymarin, derived from the milk thistle.
The silybin in Marin is in a phosphatidylcholine
complex to increase bioavailability, reaching levels up to 10 times more than 80%-standardized milk thistle formulas.◆

 Lori gave it to Willow when her liver enzymes were high and it reduced them significantly. You would only have to give one pill. Also, trying something besides humus may help, like cream cheese. I'm so glad Cyclops is stable and the nose bleeds weren't caused by the IMHA.

Actually what he's doing now is about the same as the typical dose of Marin.  The reason I'm asking him to go 'higher' is because cyclosporine is NOW known to cause pretty horrible renal problems.  They're typically more afraid of renal problems than liver problems (which is why they put Cloppy ON it -- because her liver values were already high).

the bottom line is -- the liver will regenerate.  But the kidneys won't.

Also -- he *can't* use cream cheese -- dairy inhibits the absorption of the cyclosporine.  He can't use ANYTHING dairy (which was horrible for Billy cos I used yogurt, ricotta, etc. etc. etc. **aaaruuughhhhhh**)

You CAN get milk thistle in bulk -- Leaves and Roots is CHEAPER than anyone and she's got good quality stuff.  BUT TRY IT FIRST -- empty some caps into her food and see.

In fact, will she just take the caps IN HER FOOD?  (now I feed homecooked and I get away LOTS of times with just stirring pills right into COLD food -- not hot or it will melt the capsules).  You can't do that with the cyclosporine because you can't let them "bite" the capsule.

However -- what *I* did -- meds were times for EVERYONE to get a treat.  Liverwurst works awesomely -- **and** it's got iron in it (*cos it's LIVER*).

but -- have both the dogs sitting in front of you.  I used to just cut up the little "wheels" of liverwurst into twice as many bits as I had pills (or whatever I needed to shove them into as 'gulp size';).  Smush a couple of pills into the wedge of liverwurst.  Hold it high above the nose (to keep the throat straight) with the OTHER PIECE **IN YOUR HAND** -- Cloppy gets the one with her pill and HERE is YOURS!!! (other piece goes in other dog's mouth!  You may actually have to follow this with another 'bit' of liverwurst occasionally -- but she'll get it that a) if SHE doesn't want it, Dog B does and b) it goes round robin FAST so you can't stop to lick it off.

I would set up ALL the pills like this FIRST, and then pop them in mouths one after another.  I literally was giving Billy and Foxy about 25 - 50 pills in a day at times (when Foxy was sick with the liver problems and/or when Billy was in IMHA).  BUT by dragging the others into it, actually it is darned advantageous:

1.  No one stops to 'examine' the pill.  TELL THEM "It's your pill, so don't chew!" BUT they know the others are sitting there salivating to get THEIRS and if they don't take it somebuddy else wants it!!

Frankly, it's dirty pool BUT it works and it uses that basic dog greed to work FOR you.

2.  Billy learned while Foxy was so sick that meds are "good" and they "help" you.  He also learned that everbuddy gets the treat so no big deal.  So it helps in that they ALL learn to take meds easy.

BIG HUGE NOTE TO GRATEFULDAWG:

**HUGE CAUTION**

I am VERY concerned that this is going on -- I *know* Cloppy has taken meds easily -- BUT the fact that she's resisting the cyclosporine is NOT GOOD.  Because you could have some stomach issues going on.

She's not stupid -- she may KNOW this causes a hot rock in her stomach.

IF just re-organizing giving the meds doesn't work FAST -- you gotta address this with the vets a.s.a.p.

Remember, dogs are stoic -- if THEY begin to object, if THEY begin to tell you the stomach is being a problem you CAN NOT *ignore* it and again, this is where you and I have to become a royal p.i.t.a. to the vets because you can NOT just wait for the dog to stop eating.  THAT is next.  Because something about this pill may be causing extreme stomach discomfort and THAT can be an ulcer.  That will FAST put the dog off food.

The stomach, liver and kidneys all take a SUPER hit with these meds.  And all of a *sudden* you can have a dog refusing to eat.  DON'T WAIT FOR IT. 

Mike, honest -- we GOTTA talk and I don't care if it's at 2 a.m. my time.  I really don't.  I've got a bunch of things running in my mind for you -- and I think you're coming to a place where you'll have to change some things. 

Have they tested her IRON?  Is she taking IRON??  I have to wonder if the body isn't churning out blood fast enough because she's iron deficient.  IT CAN HAPPEN (it did with Billy even iwth all the iron-rich foods I gave him).  If the body can't make iron-rich blood the pcv won't go up.

What, what milk thistle is he using?  The ones I had for Willow were just capsules I could open and sprinkle onto her food.  When she was not feeling well at first, I opened them into a jar of baby food and let her lick the food right from the jar.

Also, just going to be completely honest here, and I know Callie will not agree but Willow could only tolerate the extra milk thistle to a certain point and then she started feeling sick from it.  So, it is possible all the extra milk thistle could be causing her to not want to eat too.

 He's been using the same dose since he started using it *I think*. 

 I'm using "Natures Bounty" which I got at WalGreens.  275mg capsules which do open up and pull apart.  I give 2 of them 4 times per day for a total of 2200mg.  Haven't changed brands.  The iron thing is interesting.  I am not giving suppliments and no one has said her iron was low.  I will call the vet tommorow and ask what the CBC said about her iron.

 No this is just because of the pred.  Her appetite is fine.  Here is what the deal is.  Before stopping the pred she was so hungry that her eyes would open wide and she'd gulp the humus, my finger and any pills I had in there.  Now she is taking the humus, finding the milk thistle pill and spitting the pill out.

She is eating her kibble and everything else I give her.  Her appetite is what it used to be before she got sick and started the Pred. Trust me if I saw her appetite go down I'd do something.  But her last lab taken on Monday her PCV went up by 1 from 24 to 25 and everything else was on par with what all her past labs were.

She loves the Humus but I tried the peanut butter as was suggested above and it worked because she was unable to seperate out the pill so she took the whole thing.

Really she just was very affected by the Pred and this is normal for her.  She never was sick a day in her life before and she had never had a non-edible pill before so this whole thing was new to her.

 Hey JessiesMom-

Thanks for the tip on the Marin.  That lead me to a forum in the UK (which I think Lori and Willow are on but not positive, I haven't registered there yet) but they were talkng about Marin combined with Sam-E pills.  I guess the company that makes Marin also makes Sam-E "for dogs" called Densyl or something like that.  But from what I've been reading the human Sam-E would be just fine.  

Lowest price I found for Marin so far is 68 dollars for a 90 day supply.  One pill per day for her weight.  That certainly sounds easier.  Or I may just stick with the Milk Thistle and add Sam-E as your suggestion about peanut butter turned out to work well.  She LOVES humus but she's just onto me now and what I'm doing.

GratefulDawg

Thanks for the tip on the Marin. 

  You're welcome.

GratefulDawg

Lowest price I found for Marin so far is 68 dollars for a 90 day supply.

  You can get a 90 day supply for $57 dollars here;   http://www.allivet.com/Marin-p/26857.htm;  A 30 day supply costs $19. Allivet is one of the cheapest sites I know of for vet supplies.

GratefulDawg

The iron thing is interesting.  I am not giving suppliments and no one has said her iron was low.  I will call the vet tommorow and ask what the CBC said about her iron.

It was something they *began* to test for after Billy had been doing this just about as long as Cloppy -- It's not something dogs typically get low on -- JUST in these situations.

A regular cbc doesn't show it -- even a full "chem panel" doesn't show iron -- you have to "add it" to the blood panel -- was about $15 if I recall.  

Beef heart ($1.69 pound)

liver (beef usually)

hummus

sticky fruits -- like figs, prunes, dates are all high in iron

The typical "high iron" stuff like spinach, swiss chard, etc. -- you can't use because arthritis is such a problem with the steroid-like drugs.  They're too high in oxalic acid.

We didn't supplement iron too long (because it becomes toxic) but it  was part of what we did tho