Another phantom?

hmm...given her history....have you had her checked out for cystic ovaries? Has she had a full thyroid panel? Have you had her checked for Brucellosis? Those would be my first thoughts...and I'd also look behind her into her pedigree for all the above aside from Brucie. Might shed light.

I know your breed can have some interesting reproductive issues...Brookcove, a member here will hopefully stop by. She has BC's and knows quite a bit about the challenges of breeding them.

I personally do not do U/S because really..butfor my own inability to be patient...all will be revealed in another 4 weeks...right? LOL. Honestly I do my x rays but I've never been unsure there'd be something.

I have a Beagle girl now about 30 days in and I am still not sure. She has all the signs your girl does minus the discharge and she has never missed...so again...I am waiting right along with you!

I have never mated her before so I didn't think of Brucellosis as an issue. I thought it was an std? The only dog that has ever been near her other than this stud ( who is a proven sire of mostly large litters) is my neutered male, who has never been near another bitch. The breeders I got Pepper from were extremely knowledgable about BCs and pedigrees, have been breeding for decades. Their dogs are all working dogs, who we met, and all extremely healthy specimens with no degree of relatedness. They simply will not put unsound animals together or any that have relatives in their pedigrees as far as the eye can see as they know that BCs have potential temperament problems from inbreeding and they simply do not want to take the risk of producing unsound puppies. They even retain and train any puppies that will be better as working dogs than pets! We did ask a lot of questions of these people at the time, as we had had a very bad experience with a BC bitch previously and really wanted to make sure that there would be no problems this time around. The mother did tend to smaller litters of 4-6 pups.

 I wasn't going to bother with an US but I realised that where I had planned for her to whelp is probably too close to the back door for December, and as some furniture moving is involved in repositioning her box I decided that I would just double check so I would know whether to go ahead with the disturbance. She hates it when I re-arrange things, and if I need to do so for her whelp it would be better to do it sooner than later. Now I'm in a terrible state of really not knowing what to do whereas if I hadn't had the scan I would have gone ahead and moved it all. I wish I'd never gone now.

But with the short season and the surviving ability of sperm, it's possible that she could be up to 9 days behind where I think she is, which would make her 26, not 35 days at the scan. These vets did specify that they prefer a bitch at least 5 weeks pregnant for their scans. Serves me right for being impatient, now I am so full of questions

Thankyou, though. If there is no pregnancy then I think some testing before her next heat will probably be in order.

ALWAYS....test for brucellosis. She could catch it squatting outside...or any number of other ways. It is not something IMO any bitch should ever be sent off to breed...without testing for. It can absolutely...ruin a breeding programme. It is not just sexual contact but oral...nose to tush...nose to nose...etc. There is really no reason not to test every bitch every time, since the test here is about $80...not that I at all think that is the problem here but....yes spayed and neutered dogs both can carry, and spread brucellosis....it's not a disease that affects that section of dogs so outward signs would not be present.

The above is simply input to go forward with...not really because I think this is the issue

Given the common issues in your breed, even with working stock from what Brookcove has mentioned...with conception in the bitches...I would at LEAST do a thyroid panel to rule out issues. That is a hereditary issue and one that directly relates to the heat cycle and ability to conceive. Not something to pass along...the test is not that bad...probably less than your U/S. Can't do it now with her being possibly preggers or at least recently in season....so maybe something to look into later on. Good lines are a GREAT start. So good job.

I hope she is preggers...and I hope things go very well...if you want to drop the member Brookcove a note do a search on her username...she probably has lots of info to share.

"Relatedness" as you say is not really an issue in Border Collies - not working lines anyways - it's what lines you cross.  When you do your homework of choosing from working parents that are trained to a high degree, and train your breeding stock to that high degree also, issues of temperament sort themselves out under training pressures.

Females bred from the best lines can have fertility problems - probably related to those shared by human athletes - slow cyclers and low estrogen levels. 

You can get estrogen levels tested if she's a high performer and there is a great demand for pups off her.  If not, it's best to let mother nature have her say, spay her, and continue her training for your own (and her) benefit.  Sometimes it's best to take a pass on forcing the subject with a slow starter regardless. 

The BC is a breed which prides itself on natural health and easy births (when they happen, lol).  It's best not to spread reproductive problems in a breed that is in no danger of extinction for lack of breeding material ad healthy lines.

As Gina says, thyroid is also often implicated in slow cyclers.  These females should NOT be bred - thyroid disorder is already becoming a serious problem in the breed. 

brookcove

thyroid disorder is already becoming a serious problem in the breed. 

I wondered where the breed was on that Becca, thank you. It's SO frustrating because you can have a nice thyroid at 2 and be low at 4-5 and well...horses are out at that point many a time LOL.

As always, good to get your input!

Thanks for your input, Brookcove. I had already decided that if there is a problem with breeding from her, given the phantoms, I would spay her after this anyway. There is little point in putting her through this stress if it isn't doing her or the line any good. I had heard there were thyroid problems in BCs - I had my dog tested a few years ago with concerns for that. Unfortunately they don't do the best thyroid test as standard in the UK and they treat the results as an absolute, which may mean that a dog with low but within normal range T4 is left untreated when it would really benefit from treatment. However, I do know that the dog I had tested was at the low end, and as they won't give medication, I treat him through diet and exercise. Not ideal, I know, but unless I study and become a vet myself there is little else I can do about it.

 I did have a gentle prod today and I think I can now feel some very small bumps. I'll check again in a few days to see if they are still there and, hopefully, bigger. If so, then I will have to assume that despite the short cycle she did indeed ovulate at a more normal time in the cycle and could be up to a werek behind where I thought she was. If she is still not really giving me a proper answer nearer the time the pups are due I will have to have her x-rayed, I suppose, to see whether she has just 1 or 2 pups in there. Her phantoms generally appear sooner than a real litter would, but only time will tell now.

Yes, I totally agree that there is no need to spread any genetic issues of any kind in BCs, they are certainly not going to be lost to us!

That's interesting about thyroid in the UK.  It may partly explain why our UK-based breed (with much infusion still occurring from overseas), which is generally healthy in other respects, is coming up with problems in this area. 

And even more so, Gina - in Border Collies, you can have a "low normal" reading and have very serious problems - some of them not "typical" of hypothyroid disorder.  Mild aggression, underweight, thin coat and minor skin problems, heat intolerance - these are things that can slide under the radar in an excellent working dog (since they tend to crop up well past training and trialing age) - and heat intolerance is something hardly ever noticed in the UK!  If the temps go above 80 there - everyone is fainting away and no one would blame a dog for heat exhaustion.

So, it's an oddball thing - the Health and Genetics Committee has started looking at it - of great concern at the moment are the twin demons of early progressive hearing loss and epilepsy - at least there's a treatment for hypothyroidism and to some extent it is self limiting since working BC studs are not usually bred willy nilly until their prime years when they've accomplished something.