Early Spay/Neuter Questions

CoBuHe

You would have an Incredible Hulk on your hands...LOL

Instead of the Terminator (or the Govenator), you would have the Bugsinator. 

But I shouldn't make light of the science.   I fully understand the importance of the sex hormones in development but I don't think that for 'pets' conformation is a huge issue.  As for the health risks well I haven't read the studies but can only say that I really have almost always known 'fixed' animals.  One friend breeds and shows labs and hers are obviously intact and I can't say that I have seen any spay/neuter related health issues.  In fact I suppose I have been lucky in that my family's animals have always lived very long healthy lives.

I am strongly of the mind that no intact animal should be let out of a shelter.  I also think that if someone is not showing or breeding their purebred it should be spay/neutered.  I understand that in some areas of hte country overpopulation isn't a problem - around here it is apalling.

On the lighter side the place I buy Bugsy's food has T shirts that say "Don't Litter, Spay/Neuter"

Lies, Bugsy weighs more than you would think relative to size, sort of the opposite of Coke

My dog, Gracie, was spayed by the Doberman Rescue at 8 weeks of age.  She is 4 inches taller than standard (her mother is breed standard height, but her father was somewhat bigger overall.)  She is definitely more lean - but that is a good thing in Dobes.  It is my belief that one of her littermates was allowed to not be spayed at 8 weeks.  That female is completely within Dobe breed standard for height and she is more filled out/muscular than Gracie is.

As for incontinence, Gracie is 5 1/2 and we have had issues of leaking that started last year.  I am told this is a result of early spaying.  Her sister who was spayed later in life has not experienced leaking to date.  Perhaps it means nothing.  Personally, I would have preferred to let her wait a few months before spaying her, but it was already done when I chose her at 11 weeks.

miranadobe

As for incontinence, Gracie is 5 1/2 and we have had issues of leaking that started last year.  I am told this is a result of early spaying.  Her sister who was spayed later in life has not experienced leaking to date. 

You know what though...My Codycoe (RIP) was spayed just after 2 years old (approx) and she suffered from incontinence as she got older starting at about age 8 or so...so I guess it just depends on the dog.  I've always heard that spaying in general will cause incontinence...just not so sure I buy it.

Shelter pups should be s/n before they are homed, I agree, if for no other reason but to curb the population.

CoBuHe

My Codycoe (RIP) was spayed just after 2 years old (approx) and she suffered from incontinence as she got older starting at about age 8 or so.

I would be ok if this started at 8.  Starting at 4 is different, to me at least.  I completely respect the position the shelter was in, and I don't begrudge the decision because I know they debated over it, how they could control adopters spaying/neutering, etc.  Gracie is a product of decent backyard breeders of good-natured, healthy purebred Dobes.  It's feasible that someone would want to breed from their litter, and I know of rescues that have had to battle with adopters like that.  (I seem to recall Amanda had a friend who adopted a rescue Dobe and tried to breed it.)  So I respect their decision to spay/neuter the litter. 

I didn't know at the time what sort of difference it would make to my girl.  I honestly believe it did make these differences.  Are they deal breakers or make her less of a dog, no.  But starting a dog on medication for a condition that could have been avoided, or come on several years later in life, is disappointing.  My next pups will come from breeders for a myriad of reasons, and I will continue to support our breed rescue and likely adopt adult dogs from them in the future.  I am exceptionally fortunate that I have such a spectacular dog from a rescue and I appreciate her every day.

miranadobe

I would be ok if this started at 8.  Starting at 4 is different, to me at least. 

Yeah, good point...incontinence is nromal for the elder dogs anyway.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

I can't support early spay/neuter. It has serious adverse health and quality of life reductions in dogs subjected to it. If people are so concerned about adopting out to irresponsible people maybe some really early tubal ligations/ vasectomies would be better FOR THE DOGS.

I'm against it because it CAN cause defects but WHY NOT just WAIT........................... until 6 moths.

GoldenAC

 Although I understand why shelters spay/neuter very young, there was a retrospective study which came out last year that showed that there are health concerns for early spay/neuter, and spaying and neutering at all.

The link is here (sorry, I can not do a fancy link).

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

I'm sorry that's just plain a crazy article - most of the information is all ANCIENT -- some of it was compiled back in the 80's (and they didn't even do 8 week spay/neuter then!!) so there's no definition of 'early' across the board.  Most of it is simply trolled from vet electronic records (and tell me how accurate THOSE are and how complete??) and a lot of this was even done in Europe where it is not at all customary to spay/neuter.

There is no control for any of this to record what those dogs ate -- how can you conclude that it was early spay neuter that caused this when perhaps most of those dogs ate the poorest of poor foods preseved with all sorts of carcinogens??  It's absolutely ludicrous.  Quite honestly it's one of those "studies" that sets out to prove a point and they just troll for information until they find something they can manpulate to support their pre-drawn conclusion.

 In order to draw the conclusion and have it valid you'd have to have all the dogs in like circumstances, like food, spayed/neutered at the same ages under the same circumstances with no other differences in how they were treated **except** when they were spayed/neutered.

There is SO much evidence to support the benfits -- and the weird statistics they cite of those -- as they call them "minor things" like testicular cancer are just plain unsupported (when they're trying to manipulate data also taken about osteosarcoma to say early spay/neuter worsens that??).  Shoot -- it's difficult enough to track osteosarcoma alone without drawing some weird conclusions simply from veterinary records "about" various dogs.  Were these records all taken from vets who were like-minded about certain things?  What was the frame of reference?  What was the information pool like and how biased was it?

 There's no attempt to link which "sources" support which of their widely broadcast "facts".  That's the biggest piece of hogwash I've seen in a long while -- sorry, I mean no disrespect but it's one of those things written to try to 'prove' someone's personal mission.

miranadobe

I didn't know at the time what sort of difference it would make to my girl.  I honestly believe it did make these differences.  Are they deal breakers or make her less of a dog, no.  But starting a dog on medication for a condition that could have been avoided, or come on several years later in life, is disappointing. 

I never realized either until I dealt with the incontinence with my samoyed. She was spayed before 6 months and started having problems around 3. Sassy was spayed when we rescued her at about 2 yrs of age and she's over 8 now and has never had a problem. Still, I fully support the spay/neuter programs the shelters have.

Mechanical Angel

I'm against it because it CAN cause defects but WHY NOT just WAIT........................... until 6 moths.

So can altering later in life. I'm happy to know that I wont be facing testicular cancer with my boy, because he was neutered.

Shelters cannot adopt out animals before they are altered, at least in my state. Many, MANY, puppies and kittens are already put to sleep because they are too young. Raising the spay/neuter age is only going to result in more puppies and kittens being put to sleep.

None of my animals have issues, no leaking, no joint problems - nothing. Casey is fully muscled, he has a very nice butt - if I do say so myself.

One of my dogs, Bevo, was neutered at around 18 weeks.  He is about 4 inches taller than breed standard.  He is very lean, & leggy.  He appears very feminine, & is mistaken for a female on a regular basis.  I have met his parents, who are both normal sized, as is one of his brothers, & sisters.  All four of these dogs are far more muscular than what Bev is.  Do I love him any less for any of these things?  Of course not, but it is definitely something that I will take into consideration before I chose to have another dog of mine  neutered young.

I have an ex-friend, who adopted a female dobe.  The dog had puppy vaginitis, so the rescue group decided to adopt her out before she was spayed.  They did have a contract with the adopter to have the dog spayed after her first heat.  The new owner let her go through heat, & knowingly allowed the dog to be bred.  Eventually, I found out & turned her in to the recuse organization, who took control of both mom, & pups.  After this incident, I completely understand why rescues support early spays, & neuters.

Mechanical Angel

I'm against it because it CAN cause defects but WHY NOT just WAIT........................... until 6 moths.

Yes wait...because shelters have so much room to just sit and wait for the optimum time....you do realize that dogs are typically given 3-7 DAYS to find a home before they are euthanized??

most people are coming to believe that even six months is too early. Wait until the dog physically matures. Neutering before bone growth plates close affects the dog's final build; the dog now has various parts that don't fit together as well as they should. So you're predisposed to painful things like arthritis.

But, the issue in this particular thread is focused on early spay/neuter in shelter dogs, isn't it. 

I have always been a firm believer in waiting until maturity to spay or neuter to give the dog ample time for proper growth and development.  However, the shelters have the responsibility in large part in aid in population control.  Is it a disadvantage to the dogs growth and development?  Yes.  I suppose if the shelters could get adopters to guarantee they would s/n at the "appropriate" age, that would be a solution.  Happening?  Likely, not.

Even if the shelters could successfully educate the adopters, that would be a big step.  But, I would imagine with their resources...that is difficult as well.