calliecritturs
Posted : 11/6/2008 9:04:08 PM
Got his bloodwork back this morning -- high liver values *down* about 10 - 15%, nothing abnormally elevated - mostly everything indicates not a 'toxin' (like if he got into something) and not an 'infection' -- but rather just inflammation.
Now the drop in liver values is JUST the milk thistle. But Dr D was hoping it would come down a bit faster so she's added "Pure Liver" which is a "glandular" supplement that he's been on before with really good success. IF this doesn't bring it down more quickly, then we'll have to go to something stronger like Ecliptex (which is an oriental herbal blend -- has the oriental version of milk thistle in it plus milk thistle and some other stuff - but typically it's used more in a toxin sort of situation, but we can fall back on it when need be).
I got a bit more of HER input on "Marin" and "Denosyl" -- Marin is sort of a re-formulated milk thistle. Essentially they have chemically tried to extract the part of silymarin (milk thistle) that does the detoxing and "intensify" it. So they've made a pharmaceutical out of milk thistle.
This enables them to patent it and treat it like a drug. Now it's put out by the same company that does Adequan (which is a pharmaceutical version of glucosamine/chondroitin) -- and honestly, her biggest problem with the company is they do some pretty nasty "testing" (they create liver problems so they can 'cure' them, etc.).
Their products are superb - they really are. But she likened it to how aspirin is the pharmaceutical made from the stuff that is *in* willow bark. Willow bark, if given in moderation, won't hurt a dog's stomach. It *can* if abused but it's effective without that.
BUT aspirin will eat a hole in a dog's stomach pretty quick if given daily.
The herb will do what the pharmaceutical will do without the harmful side effects. The phamaceutical may be "stronger" but it also has the elements missing which may help keep it "safe".
She tends to feel the same way about Marin. What its' long term effects are ... that's not known.
The *good* thing that this company does is that it helps make the more natural substances of interest TO regular vets. Where a vet might fear or distain "an herb" -- Marin takes that herb to "pharmaceutical quality" with a company of a good medical reputation and makes it something regular vets will use.
It's just that typically you can achieve the good results wiith more safety and less risk of side effects with the herb.
And basically that's the whole conundrum of why some folks fear and distain herbs (because they aren't "regulated" or 'strong' enough) and why some folks fear and distain pharmaceuticals (being prone to side effects and so strong and single-purposed that they force the body when a gentler approach might do the same with less trauma).
Denosyl isn't milk thistle. It's essentially SamE -- just formulated almost identically but with enough of a difference to warrant a patent and again, it's then classed as a pharmaceutical.
Most of us really don't want to know how much "big business" pharmaceuticals are. It's a depressing subject and one that's guaranteed to raise blood pressure for many, but several folks have asked me pointedly what is "Marin" and what is "Denosyl" and aren't they better than milk thistle.
Even with the high high doses of milk thistle Billy's been on in the past it's never harmed him at all. That's risk enough for me ... if that makes sense.