Accidental litters...

Eww, you mean like heart stick?  But, letting them expire on the table is pretty icky too.  I never thought about that, I guess it would be difficult to impossible to IV euth solution into a preterm pup.  That's what I always assumed happened.  Can I have Door # 3 please?

Accidental breedings have been the bane of responsible, thoughtful breeders forever.  I have a book with a letter from George Washington to his kennel manager, where he begs him especially to not let his prized new hunting b* tch breed with the "terrer Mongrel of the head Groom."  lol

 I think if you breed long enough, you're eventually going to wind up with an accidental litter...and it's not about thinking you're infallible, it's about just making a mistake! 

Bitches with silent heats, absentminded kennel help, the EXTREMELY determined stud dog...heck, the stupid kid who let's Sparky out with Mimi because "He wanted to see her so badly and they wrestled!"

I have a couple other friends that ended up with accidental litters....purebred litters, and they actually ended up being quite nice...but they were accidents.

I did not reag anyone elese's answer because I wanted to be as honest as I could be. Why on earth if this was a 100% accident didn't they get the morning after shots??  Failing that have the litter aborted?   There is absolutely no way my show girls would have carried a mistake litter like this to term. None. IT could have been a top ten dog of my own breed but it would have made zero difference.  My dogs have to be finished and tested on so many levels before I allow a breeding so why on earth would I okay a breeding because a handler messed up? Pluss I would be after that handler in court in a blink and a wink. She would be compensating me for the expense and damages to my bitch. We paid Pupternity to an Alstasian Bitch newly imported from England, well to her owner after our randy RRR broke her out of her yard and mated with her on her first season. BUT we also followed and baked up each puppy for life paying for them to be altered at an appropriate age . I would be over the top at a handler allowing my dog the "freedom" or another dog the access to  accomplish an accidental breeding !

Bonita of Bwana

 I can't say why there was no morning after shot.  These were not questions I asked, as I did not consider asking them while the owner of the bitch was talking to me.  All puppies will be sold with a nominal fee, and placed on spay/neuter contracts just like the rest of her pet puppies would be.

She's sending out puppy questionaires to interested parties, and both parents are health tested, the father with his Junior Hunter title and mom getting started in the field.  Things happen.

Things do happen....when I had my BC's we had an 'oops litter'. She was 9 months or so going into her first heat, our 2 year old stud got with her. 9 puppies, 1 month before she turned a year. I was upset, I was more worried about her health, a 25lbs dog having 9 puppies is a big deal. The litter was registered, and sold, thankfully they were all sold to adults with no kids at home(so it wasn't a "Oh, Mommy! I want a puppy!" type thing.). She's being responisible for her dog, but I agree, I'd make that handler pay for spay/neuter fees and all care that the dog had to go thru.

 There are legit reasons a breeder may not want to use the mismate shot. There are potential bad side effects to the shot that an owner may not want to risk. Pregnancy is not a disease, if anything female dogs are actually meant to be pregnant, nursing or weaning puppies most of the time (not saying anyone should breed their bitch that often). If she had a litter easily previously and is not a breed or line prone to whelping problems, all the more reaons IMO to allow her to have the litter. If it was a bitch that wasn't to be bred or shown again, spaying would be an option as well.

  As for the concern that she had puppies 6 months ago - the leading canine reproduction vet feels that it is actually healthier for bitches to be bred back to back (or even back to back to back) than it is to skip heats between breedings.

 I wouldn't worry to much about the Christmas issues - good homes are good homes, no matter what time of year they bring their puppy home. I've brought dogs home around the holidays without an issue and sent dogs to homes around the holidays without an issue. Not everyone celebrates Christmas, not everyone has huge holiday get togethers or has out of town obligations. Not everyone who wants a puppy around the holidays is making an impluse buy either. Many people are off work during the holidays and for some people work slows down a bit in Jan, which makes a good time to bring a puppy home. Now if they were going to put a "Free Puppies" ad in the paper around Christmas, that would be a different story.

Xeph

  Things happen.

Sorry I would not be able to take that attitude.  The biggest concern of every Ethical Breeder I know is that Untested Stock is NEVER used. They may use an unfinished dog , they may opt for complicated breeding options ( A.I. a amiden bitch or predetermined C sections on a breed or a specific animal they decide may not whelp well)  But to allow a litter to hit the ground on a very young bitch who had not been tested or awho had been bred by a young dog who was untested I honestly can not think of a single breeder who would allow that litter if the Bitch could handle the shot or a proceadure .  

20 years ago Breeders were begining to understand the challenges they were facing. Vetinary care was improving on so many levels that we began to accept the responsibility we face when chosing to breed.  Tests that were fads when they first appeared became club suggested and finally required on the code of ethics... ruling out the mating of dogs who were displastic, had caridiac issues, thyroid problems , eye and hearing concerns are common place in our breed ,  but these tests can not be done until specific ages , without even a pre lim it would be tough to sell a puppy to another member or fancier as anything but a pet. And even then... that breeder would be taking a ton of heat.  People may be sympathetic that "things happen"  but that would not make them complacent.  The handler would be quietly blackballed.

As an example there was a  issue when a senior breeder decided to breed a bitch with a single failed elbow who was deemed  barley dysplastic . There was a consensus that the failure may have been from an injury as opposed to a genetic defect.  I found what she was doing to be of interest on many levels, the  puppy owners had full disclosure, the breeder backed the pups for life on the elbows and with yearly X rays.  There were many other things done to remain responsible and connected, pups were placed in specific homes to assure there could be no changing of minds and breeding additionally questionable litters. The breeder had wanted to explore the theory that a single elbow could or would affect an entire litter.  The pair used are top dogs, who move with incredible grace. They passed every other test required.  This was to be a control group in a study.  This person for whom I have great respect had to deal with scorn,  gossip, a once golden reputation was brutalized by some ,  it has repercussions that may color the perception of an outstanding kennel forever. And this was a planned breeding where every base was covered and a lay person would not be involved , compromising the goal of the study.

I have friends in a giant breed who have struggled painfully , spending a fortune on purchase and then down the road medical care. This Breed does not test breeding stock as a matter of ethics or routine.  It is not uncommon for the top breeders in this breed to have kennels worth more than my home in set up, stock and equipment.  But that does not protect the family who may buy from them or from the line. That pain and expense is avoidable and ethical caring breeders hold that thought very close to their heart.  Each time you decide to breed you put your dog at risk. A million things can go wrong. The dam can sour health wise and you can lose her.  If for no other reason , each and every breeding should have that question before she is expected to carry and deliver a litter. Is that litter , worth her show career,  future litters or even her life? As a breeder have you done everything you could to prepare her and maximise her chances to survive and for it to not cost her tremedously? 

I thought in the OP the question was how would we feel or what would we do if this happened to one of our dogs?  Maybe I misunderstood . I know my answer was very strongly worded as that reflected how I honestly do feel and for the reasons I mentioned in this post.   yes .."things happen"  as a breeder we have to choose how we would deal with these things and what would be acceptable.  I do not take risks with thoes I love and care for.  My dogs are not a source of income. They are not a hobby.   And a litter with that many questions would be a major concern for me. 

Bonita of Bwana

Bonita of Bwana

Xeph

  Things happen.

Sorry I would not be able to take that attitude.  The biggest concern of every Ethical Breeder I know is that Untested Stock is NEVER used. They may use an unfinished dog , they may opt for complicated breeding options ( A.I. a amiden bitch or predetermined C sections on a breed or a specific animal they decide may not whelp well)  But to allow a litter to hit the ground on a very young bitch who had not been tested or awho had been bred by a young dog who was untested I honestly can not think of a single breeder who would allow that litter if the Bitch could handle the shot or a proceadure . 

 I know multiple ethical breeders who have opted not to use a mismate shot with accidental breedings. Just because you feel it is the only responsible action, doesn't mean everyone agrees. I had an accidental litter out of my 6 year old bitch and my 2 year old male. The male had not yet been OFA'd, so I had it done before the puppies were sold. The bitch was about 2 weeks from whelping when we realized she was pregnant, so aborting the litter at that point for me was out of the question. The puppies actually turned out well and I kept one that I will be starting to seriously show this winter and likely will breed in the future. If by some chance all the health clearances were not passed, I would have been open about it, sold all on S/N contracts and would not have kept a puppy for myself.

  I'm not knocking health testing but unless it is DNA testing, it is not the be all end of breeding healthy dogs. One of my bitches who has been carefully bred twice failed her last CERF exam due to a late onset eye disorder, she has CERFed clear multiple times and was not even bred right at 2. CERF only shows that at the time of the exam, the dog was free of eye disorders. It doesn't tell us if the dog is carrying an eye disorder or if the dog may develop one. Dogs can OFA Excellent but still produce HD because OFA only tells us what the dog is, not what they carry. OFA elbow evelaution has gotten a reputation for not being accurate in recent times because they are failing dogs that no one else (not even ortho specialists) see anything wrong with. And some of the biggest issues are not ones which can be tested for - in my breed it is epilepsy which can not be tested for and is often late onset. In other breeds early cancer is a big problem and one that often doesn't show up until the dog is bred. I'm not saying that health testing is worthless or that it shouldn't be done BUT it only tells us so much, so lack of health testing (as long as the parents are from a tested background) wouldn't push me to use a mismate shot. It would push me to do the testing on the dogs ASAP though.

I understand your thinking and do not fault you for it in any way. The OP was How or What would WE do..as in each of us....  You would still be considered a responsible Breeder I think,  as you make it a point to put the dog's health first , followed by back up testing A S A P. Basing , if I read your post correctly , the placement of the pups on that testing. And I also thought , but hey I could be wrong, that the post was directed at Breeders as opposed to the Owner of a single dog or one who had not yet begun their breeding program.  If you only have one litter , ever that may not be the end of the world  or your plans of being a significant Breeder in your breed.  Rather than someone who had again a  single litter or had not planned on being a breeder. 

As far as DNA testing goes, Again I understand your postition. There is a difference between the testing that the majority of Breeders use and the more finite intent of a DNA test.  Unfortunatly we all have to be realistic about what we can invest in any litter. After OFAing 6 seperate tests, adding the Baer and CERF . The Vet testing  and  the recording of these tests it is pretty significant.  Then making sure that is multiplied by two.  If I had a dog fail a Cerf I would not use it again and I would alert any puppies from that dog's previous breedings.  Allowing them to understand there was a late onset issue.  When letting our potential puppy homes know about our testing we are careful to make sure they understand the tests  are about the state of health of our dog at the time of the breeding.

There has been a decline in the health issues that we test for with our breed since we as a club and community began to encourage the routine practice and use of testing and genetics seminars and consultations.  Let me restate that, a decline in the health issues of TESTED dogs and their off spring. Which sadly can not cover the millers, BYBs and hobby folk who produce a single litter from a dearly loved family dog to fill the requests from family and friends for one "just like yours!"

DNA testing can make me grin a bit , but in a more abstract way when I speak with friends who have paid to have thier Mixed pup DNAed and it comes back an extrodinary blend of breeds that are invisble to the imagination and group eye.  Like a dog that lives down the street from me, it is 22 pounds, looks like a sheltie and corgie cross but came back as a Sheltie, Irish Wolfhound, Beagle    huh??  Or as my grandson who is 9 would say... " ohhhhhhkaaay"

This is not about putting down anyone else in another breed, it is about what in your own breed and maybe breed club sets as the standard of care and education to protect that breed.  Wait , again let me think that through, I guess I do puzzle over the breeders who had ripped my friends off over the year since they do not test because the breeds in question simply can not pass the tests.  If you are churning out pups and they are coming from dogs who can no longer even breed naturally let alone deliver and you think testing is negative thinking then I guess I am pointing a veru accusatory finger .

Sigh, dogs and the people who love them this is getting uncomfortably close to Religeon and Politics which I honestly try to avoid too ...

Bonita of Bwana

Bonita of Bwana

Sigh, dogs and the people who love them this is getting uncomfortably close to Religeon and Politics which I honestly try to avoid too ...

Such a good point!

For me, since I am not a breeder, but co-own and intact female. I would first contact her breeder so we could make a decision together. It would depend on Luna's age, health testing status, and who the sire was.

My gut reaction though, is for a spay surgery and I would be ready and willing to write her breeder a big fat check to cover a breeding lease on another bitch so she would not lose out entirely on the one litter she might have planned to have out of my girl. Luna's breeder still has her brother, so this would be the closest genetic option.

The mismate shot frankly scares me, and maybe that is because I am a not a breeder and have no experience with it, but I don't think I would ever want to give it.
 

Not trying to start a debate -- but there are some folks who just plain don't like abortion -- human or dog.  I.e., it's happened -- deal with it. That's not a commentary here -- just a potential reason why abortion may not have been considered, altho it kinda sounds like calling this person a "handler" is generous.  *sigh* (Callie backing out as usual because she HATES breed discussions)

Actually, any questions in the original post were rhetorical and people just kinda chimed in with what they would do.  The whole OP was basically a "Doesn't this just uber blow?" kinda deal.

To the best of my knowledge, Rosie has not whelped yet, but I'll be asking her owner in the next couple of days.  She's actually due on Halloween.

calliecritturs

Not trying to start a debate -- but there are some folks who just plain don't like abortion -- human or dog.  I.e., it's happened -- deal with it. That's not a commentary here -- just a potential reason why abortion may not have been considered, altho it kinda sounds like calling this person a "handler" is generous.  *sigh* (Callie backing out as usual because she HATES breed discussions)

     Wanted to thank you for bringing up this point ... I'm reading through this post with my stomach in knots picturing puppy embryos - or worse, actual formed pups - dying on a cold table   Now, this POV has nothing to do with religion or politics in my case, just a gut aversion to the process. I've actually heard of someone letting their dog be spayed 2 or so weeks before the whelp date - the dog was full of pups. Now that was a revolting visual for me. Incredable how some are so opposed to culling pups but are staunch promoters of aborting litters. Not anyone specifically here, for the record. I've had pups survive born premature over a week before due date so maybe I'm dense but cannot understand why aborting them 2 weeks before is not cruelty? ugh. I don't care if one of my dogs was bred accidentally with another of my dogs or a mongrol litter, they'd be allowed to have the litter, and pups placed on s/n contracts. Obviously, the buyers would know these are oops puppies and since they wouldn't be contributing to the gene pool, I don't see not having the sire or dam fully tested as being a problem.

     Regarding the mismating shot, I am shocked that so many here are recommending it. All I have ever heard of it was horror stories of bitches failing to ever come into heat again or having irregular cycles and having planned breedings not being able to take. One thing I have always taken seriously was preserving the life of any living creature that came into my home planned or not and I've always allowed them to die with dignity. Somehow I just don't see talking about aborting an entire litter regardless of age as being too dignified a way to live or die and just very disturbing to me the way some are referring to it so casually. I once defended a breeder's right to cull a sick or unstable pup and have been accused of supporting animal cruelty for it (::eyeroll::). But then a breeder decides to keep a litter and no one suggests aborting every single pup is senseless? ok ......

HoundMusic

I don't care if one of my dogs was bred accidentally with another of my dogs or a mongrol litter, they'd be allowed to have the litter, and pups placed on s/n contracts. Obviously, the buyers would know these are oops puppies and since they wouldn't be contributing to the gene pool, I don't see not having the sire or dam fully tested as being a problem.

  This is kind of a good point. Most people buy their pets from untested breeding stock. Better to some from a knowledgeable, caring person with good lines than someone trying to sell them out of a truck at the flea market.

HoundMusic

Regarding the mismating shot, I am shocked that so many here are recommending it. All I have ever heard of it was horror stories of bitches failing to ever come into heat again or having irregular cycles and having planned breedings not being able to take.

This is not, to me...horror...this is a reality of breeding dogs. Bitches can have ALL the above occur, without the mismate shot. This was no blooming virgin bitch but one that had produced a nice litter beforehand...IOW you already had something from her to carry forward with. So if she never conceived again...what have you actually lost one litter? two? Money? Ribbons?

I am sorry but the above does not scare me. I am also not one that would try expensive maybe risky treatments to save a bitches uterus from pyo...I'd spay the bitch for her own health.  BIS winner/producer or not. She is more than her uterus and heat cycle...esp when she's already proven herself in the box. 

I would try the shot myself before whelping an oops, involving a proven bitch...in all but the case of a maiden bitch that I had nothing from yet that was exceptional in some way. I don't breed any bitch here more than 2-3 times and I try to keep someone, or access to someone...and if there was nothing worth keeping the first time around again...what are we losing here if she never came in again?

As to aborting a litter? Never been there, but I am not opposed to a person choosing to do that. IN the end it's a personal choice made after considering what is most important to you. The bitch as a reproductive animal...the bitch herself as a dog...and the potential litter.