Medical Question for Willow-Update

Lori that is GREAT  news!  I'm so happy that Willow seems to be on the road to recovery!

Thanks guys.  She's doing pretty well, holding her own.  She's got a ways to go and she needed some pain meds.  But, overall hanging in there. 

She's started pawing at me and when I get up to see what she wants she leads me over to the fridge and just stands there staring at it like, "open this". 

Lori

willowchow

She's started pawing at me and when I get up to see what she wants she leads me over to the fridge and just stands there staring at it like, "open this". 

  Awww, that's so cute. I hope the pain meds weren't for anything serious.
 

jessies_mom

I hope the pain meds weren't for anything serious.

No, not really.  She's just been very achy. 

willowchow

jessies_mom

I hope the pain meds weren't for anything serious.

No, not really.  She's just been very achy. 

 Poor Willow; guess the pred is aggravating her arthritis. I hope that as you lower the amount of pred she's taking, her arthritis won't bother her as much.   

Lori -- it probably IS the pred aggravating the arthritis.  If you want, I'm glad to send you some White Flower Oil for her -- I've got an extra bottle and it will help reduce the aching.  It comes with the pred territory.

Also -- one of the things when we weaned Billy off the pred -- they wanted the wean off to be as slow as possible (because you literally don't want the body to even *notice* that it's reducing).

I don't know what "milligram" the pills are you're using but prednisone comes in every increment under the sun!!  It comes in 20's, 10's, 5 ... but then further it comes in 2mg and 1 mg tiny pills!!!

That's SUPER helpful when trying to wean off -- I mean it's easy to 'break' pred from 20's into 2 tens (halves) and then 5's (quarters).  BUT ... your vet can call in a prescription to Walgreens for 5's, 2's or 1 mg sized pills.  They are CHEAP, but more than that it makes it a lot easier to dose it right rather than breaking it and having "little pieces and big pieces". 

Now some vets will "pulse" it -- by skipping days or going down to once a day ... but after the first bunch that I had to pill-split I asked the vet to call it in to Walgreens for me just to save me a hassle. 

Vets don't tend to keep the small increments on hand because most of the time it's not needed.  But if you tell your vet you're willing to go to Wal-greens for them, it might make the wean off easier on both you and Willow.

Thanks Callie.  She started at 2 20mg tablets twice daily.  And, now she's down to 2 20mg in the morning and 1 20mg in the evening.  So, originally she was getting 80mg total and now she's getting 60mg.  We'll see what happened with the next blood test, may need to go back up if there is a drop in platelets. 

I really want to give her the milk thistle now.  Can you please tell me again what dose and exactly how I should give it.  Between the Pred and the pain pills, I was worred about her before but now it's even more on her.  And, it won't interact with anything she's taking, right?  It's vitally important that I don't do anything to screw up the work the Pred is doing.  I can't even give fish oil right now as they said it effects the blood.

I know you've explained it to me before but I can't seem to find it. 

Thanks

Lori

Give the best brand of milk thistle you can find -- NOT a 'time-release' one (one of Solarays is a "once a day" and don't get that).

Give 2 capsules 2-3 times a day.  You can empty milk thistle in her food or you can give it just as a capsule in a bit of liverwurst or butter or whatever you give pills in -- whatever works.  I use baby food at lot -- in fact, I'll combine one veggie container and one meat container and then have them lick it off a spoon.  Just drop the caps in the baby food and spoon it up -- mine think it's the greatest that way.

 No, it won't react with anything. 

 I completely understand the fear of "screwing something up" -- Lori, I went thru heck with Billy - remember he was in ICU for THREE WEEKS -- in and out and in and out -- he had SIX transfusions in four weeks.  I was *terrified*. 

But this won't hurt and it may save her life.  Pred is too hard on the kidneys -- you'll do it fine.

Thank you Callie.  I'm off to get some right now.  I'm taking your phone numbers in case I have a question when I get there, LOL. 

Lori

OK back from store with Milk Thistle.  I want to start giving it to her right away.  Now, they didn't have much as far as selection I just went to the phamacy.  I'll get her a better one from the health store at some point soon.  But, anyway to get started. 

It's Milk Thistle extract 175 mg (silybum marianum seed) standardized to contain 80% Silymarin

Other ingredients-gelatin, rice flour, silicon dioxide, magnesium stearate and is glutun free

The directions on the bottle say to take 2-3 capsules each day.  But, she's only 45 lbs.

Is it OK to give with her medicine or should I give it at a different time?

calliecritturs

But this won't hurt and it may save her life. 

I've already given her one capsule but I know she should get more just not sure of how much as far as mg's go. 

calliecritturs

Just drop the caps in the baby food and spoon it up -- mine think it's the greatest that way.

So does Willow!  That's one side effect I like, she'll eat anything.

The vet had me do FIVE TIMES the adult dose with Billy when he was on the cyclosporine and prednisone (because in the higher doses it helps protect the kidneys as well as the liver). 

"miligrams" in herbs are kind of meaningless.  It's likes saying "How many tomatoes are in that jar of sauce or tomato paste??" -- because it depends on the quality of the herb itself to start with (in other words two equal sized caps may not have the same amount of 'Herb' because one may be a better quality plant than another). 

The drive to "standardize" herbs in the last two or three years is counter-productive.  All that is, is an "average" -- meaning it allows some companies to add in the bulkier parts of the herb (like stems and leaves) to arrive at some mythical "standard". 

 It's like the difference between cheap store brand ketchup and a good brand -- the bottles may be the same size but the flavor and consistency likely won't be. 

That's why you always see me say "buy the best brand you can find".  Wildcrafted herbs are the best -- but are also going to be priciest.  But that means it's crafted from high quality herbs grown privately rather than some big conglomerate growing herbs in soil pumped up with fertilizers and stuff. 

herbPharms stuff is all wildcrafted but it's also all tinctures and the milk thistle is very "alcohol-y" tasting.  That's what I gave Billy but he didn't mind the alcohol taste.  Solaray and Natures Resource aren't wild-crafted but they're at least consistent and a decent quality herb.

But give her at least the adult human dose 2-3 times a day.  Use that as a minimum. 

 Even little Emma takes more than the adult dose. When she was on Pred for a little bit, she took double adult dose twice a day. When she's got nothing going on, she takes the adult dose. She weighs a smidge under 20 lbs. Milk thistle is pretty benign. I've never heard of it causing a problem.

From what I understand 'dosing' of herbals tends to be pretty much a combination of marketing and "over-caution".  Meaning -- they pack what will grind up and 'fit' in a capsule and call it a dose DESPITE what historically may be used *as* a dose.

For example -- echinacea.  Used wrongly long-term is can cause some problems, so they over-reacted a few years ago and began dosing it so small it really is of no use in immune-boosting at all.  And it's just because they're afraid of backlash

 Jennie's Emma is using the milk thistle to help take part of the load off her liver on a daily basis.  What we're talking about for Willow is actually not just detoxinng but also literally *protecting* the liver (and kidneys) from damage. 

Years ago when I lost Muffin the Intrepid to renal failure, I found out later it was the chemo drug we'd given him that trashed his kidneys.  I didn't know THEN that I could have used milk thistle to protect his liver and kidneys.  So when Billy wound up with a disease that had to again be treated by drugs used to treat cancer, *that* was the driving force behind my use of milk thistle.

In other words, my point is you don't want to **just** successfully get Willow thru this particular jaunt of auto-immune disease, only to then lose her to liver or kidney problems later because of damage done by the very drug that saved her life in the auto-immune problem.  As a pet owner/guardian, there just is NO worse feeling on this planet than knowing that a drug you gave them to **save their life** then ultimately took that life simply in another way.  After losing Muffin, I promised myself I would never ever let that happen again if I could help it -- not only for one of my animals but for others if possible.

Thanks guys.  I just started her off slowly with it.  She's got a weird bowel and stuff that is normally no problem for most set her off.  But, I gave her one last night and one this morning and she is fine.  So, I think I'm going to give her two every time I feed her which is four times a day right now. 

And, once she's done with this bottle I'll go find one of the brands you recommended Callie. I might even do that tomorrow instead of waiting. 

I do feel better myself knowing that I'm at least trying to protect her from the effects of this stuff.  I don't know what her future holds but I will know that I did all I possibly could. 

Thanks, again. 

Lori