my girl's whelp

The easiest way to stop the craziness would be to spay Sasha, & have Shadow neutered.  It doesn't sound like you were prepared to deal with this, so I feel pretty confident that it would be easiest, on you, to not have to deal with it again.

 When you pick Sasha, & Shadow up from their procedures, pick up some Advantage, or Frontline to take care of the flea problem.

 

I've been through what you're going through.  Once Shadow's gotten his first, and second and subsequent mountings it only gets worse.

After Sasha's heat is over, about two weeks, your Shadow should be back to normal.

To avoid this in the future, since you've never bred before, when Sasha goes into heat, you should board Shadow.  If you think the male version of "i want it" is bad, you've never seen the female version.

Your best bet, as suggested by Bevo above, is to have both dogs sterilized.  From the tone of your post, you weren't ready for this and most likely don't have a clue about the whelping process either.   Depending upon your female's temperment you may have to board your male for the first two weeks after whelp as well.

As for the fleas, check with your vet-Advantix may not be advisable for a pregnant bitch.   

 

ETA:  How old are these dogs?  

Also you say that Shadow is a "mini" and Sasha is a "toy?"  You do know that if you breed a larger male to a smaller female, the puppies may develop so large that they cannot be delivered naturally without a SEVERE risk of the female dying with a puppy stuck in the birth canal? 

     Your male is not going through any sex withdrawal ... this is typical male behavior when they smell a bitch in heat, and as he's been allowed to breed her as often as he wants, he's going to become more agitated in the next few days. The bitch cannot be bred throughout her cycle - it's not healthy for her; it's quite painful once the vulva's swelling begins to diminish. You do need to keep them seperated until her cycle is completely finished. Bathe the bitch to get some of the smell off her.
     Now, once the male is bred, his behavior on her next cycle is going to REALLY spiral out of control. Mistake #1 was allowing them to breed as often as they wanted. I only allow my males 2 breedings 24-48hrs apart. Their hormoes are already through the roof, don't make it worse by allowing so many breedings - they will come to expect this and become even worse to handle. There is absolutely nothing, no suggestions I or anyone else can give you to calm this male. Sorry that's not what you wanted to hear, but this is quite simply how intact males act around bitches in heat. Sedatives don't help. They stare off into space, shake, whine, cry, howl ... You're going to have to seperate them on her next cycle, and what FUN that is going to be My advice would be to get this male neutered - there is a reason breeders keep either all bitches or only one or two good males ...

HoundMusic

Sedatives don't help. They stare off into space, shake, whine, cry, howl ...

 

 

My male, under extreme sedation, used his front paws to pull himself to the female and still tried to mount her (even though his rear legs wouldn't hold his weight.)

He also lost about 7 or 8 lbs while she was in heat.  

So, yep, expect everything that HoundMusic said, and more. 

Thanks for all the repilies!

 

I don't actually think my dog is suffering from sex withdrawl, I was joking about that, and I'm not as clueless as my post made it seem. I went off on a bit of a rant. My dogs have been together since birth, they came from the same breeder ( no they aren't siblings, I checked)and are together 24/7 the freak out whenever the other is out of sight, so I didn't separate them. As for the size difference, last time they were weighed, sasha was 10 pounds and shadow was 15. That is their exact height in inches as well. I did talk to my vet about the breeding, he told me that he thinks I should breed on the first heat, ( although I don't think that was the best advice) and breed every heat she has in which i want puppies. His reasoning for this is so that I spay her as soon as possible to avoid any future health problems. 

 

 as for your concerns that I'm not experienced in whelping- I'm not. I'm 15 years old to be honest. But I am confident that things will go smoothly. I am enrolled in an ag science course at school, and am taking intro to vet science right now. My teacher loves to base her lessons off of probems the students are having with their animals. So I am expecting quite a few lessons in dog pregnancy and whelping in the upcoming weeks. Also, my aunt whom is very experienced in whelping ( she grew up on a farm/rancch in texas) lives a street away and has told me to call her when the time comes. I also am gathering as much information as possible. In the upcomming weeks I will be building a whelping box, preparing a whelping kit ( gloves, rectal thermometer, emergency puppy formula, lubricating jelly, ect) I am reading about warning signs, and how to feather the bitch to induce contractions. Shadow is starting to calm down, thank goodness. Right now he's actually getting some sleep.

I def. wasn't prepared for shadow's reaction to sasha no longer allowing him to mount, and its actually quite funny the role reversal their going through.
Shadow will try to mount, he gets a tad rough and sasha cries out, then she gets lose, darts behind him, Mounts him and humps him, but she she does it roughly, almost with a sense of anger and revenge.

Other times she just mounts, without all the anger.

Its pretty funny :)

I am going to spay and Neuter, but not just yet. A few of you were suggesting I go do it now- and avoid her pregnancy all together. I apreciate your input, but that won't be done. In about two weeks I'm going to call up the vet, the dogs are are almost two years old (Shadow's birthday is in May, Sasha's isn't until July) and they are due for their next round of vaccinations, but I'm not sure if thats a good idea with her pregnancy. Somewhere within the 2nd month of her pregnancy I'll be bringing her in for an evaluation.

Okay, Im done with this very long post. Thanks again for all your advice. I'll ask my teacher about the flea treatments, and depending on what she says, and how sure she is I'll call up the vet and ask.


 

You do not want to vaccinate her while she is pregnant. You will also need to learn about vaccinations so you know what vaccines to get for the puppies and when. A lot of vets still believe it is good to vaccinate at 6 weeks. A vaccination at this age is not effective because the antibodies from their mother are still active and blocks the puppies immune system from mounting a response. It is best to get the first shot at 8-9 weeks.

If you are in ag science, you might appreciate the information at these two websites. You can learn all about immunology! It's the kind of stuff you need to know if you breed.

http://www.critteradvocacy.org/

http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/index.htm

Have any of these very knowledgeable people who seem to be encouraging such a breeding told you that dogs really shouldn't be bred before they are 2 years old so that they can be tested for common genetic diseases?  Do you know what common health problems in poodles are? 

 A veterinary science class in high school really doesn't give one the knowledge to breed, and frankly I'm a little disgusted that a teacher encourages such irresponsibleness. And unless your aunt is also a dog breeder, birthing ranch animals can be a bit different than breeding toy dogs.

I do hope you educate yourself before your dog's next heat, so you can prevent her possibly being injured while letting your male breed her at inappropriate times. She shouldn't have to suffer for your whims. The fact that she's coming to you for protection from the male saddens me

 How wonderful for you! A litter of little money makers. After all, you've not had to spend the money on OFAing patellas (which they are old enough for) or CERF or checking hips or showing. And you've definately had some savings on Frontline too, although you'll probably have to pay for a professional to really get the fleas out of your house now, so there went that. And you'll need to board your dogs while you do it- you don't want to expose a potentially in-whelp girl to the heavier-duty chemicals it takes to get fleas out of the environment, although Frontline is supposedly safe. Maybe you'll get lucky and won't have to spend it on a c-section, or maybe your teacher will pay for it as a demo for your class.

 I don't know WHAT you were thinking. Surely if you're reading about breeding online you've come across the concept of RESPONSIBLE BREEDING?

Spay and neuter these dogs, keep them on a pest-prevention program like any good vet recommends, and check out some books about responsible breeding. May I recommend "BReeding Better Dogs" (The Carmen Battaglia one)? It's really an interesting read. "The Joy of Breeding Your Own Showdog" is good too, and since you're a poodle person, you might also like "The New Complete Poodle", which has less about pedigrees but quite a lot about poodle lines so that you have an idea beyond making puppie$ what you are trying to achieve with a breeding.
 

Pwca

 How wonderful for you! A litter of little money makers.

That's exactly what I was thinking...

BYB....VERY irresponsible; makes me sick to my stomache......You're 15 years old? Where are your parents?? Instead of breeding your dogs without any knowledge of what you're doing, you should be doing your homework!!

Admin speaking...

The rules of this forum do not go out the window just because this is a topic we all feel strongly about.  There is no need for sarcasm and rudeness, and every need for measured, careful advice and education.  

To the OP: You may not like some of the responses you have gotten, but I encourage you to take the advice on research, health testing and careful breeding to heart.  I would also, personally, encourage you to change vets.  Any vet who encourages the breeding of a bitch on her first heat is not someone I would want looking after my beloved animals, and I am sure you want the best care for yours.   

 Hi again.
I never said that my teacher is encouraging me to breed my dogs, I said that she likes to teach us about real life situations, so if a student has a pregnant bitch, then she will teach the class about caring for a pregnant bitch and the whelping process. I don't find anything wrong with that. I have been researching  poodle genetic diseases, and for those of you who ask where my parents are- at home depot. Buying wood to build the whelping box. Yes, my girl comes to me to get away from my boy, but its not because she's in any danger, its because he's incredibly annoying. If I felt at any point that she was in any sort of danger, I wouldn't hesitate to get them separated, but he was just being annoying. I understand that many people are angered by people who aren't professionals, breeding their dogs, but I personally feel that allowing my girl to have a litter or two, as long as I make sure I am personally responsible to finding them all good homes, and am willing to care for the puppies as long as needed, and I make sure that none of my puppies will end up in a pound or a street somewhere, that it isn't this huge evil thing that so many of you are making it out to be. My dog is pregnant, and is going to have puppies. I am not a profesional. I am very young, I have never whelped before-  but I am informing myself, I am recieving help from experienced people, and I am giving my girl all that she needs to have a healthy litter. I know she herself is young, and I didn't plan for her to be pregnant already. When I realized she was in heat, I had planned to go to the pet store to buy one of those "heat diapers" that are made to keep blood off of any furniture, but also make it impossible for my male to penetrate, but that same day when I came home from school, my dad told me that they had already had a successful tie that morning, at that point I figured it was useless, and allowed nature to take its course. I know she is young, and I personally would have preferred to wait. But she is pregnant, and I am not going to rush to the vets to get her spayed before she can have the puppies, and I don't feel I'm committing an evil crime. She is young, but she is not that young. Dogs shouldn't be bred until they are two, and she is exactly 1 1/2 . I think that a lot of you are over reacting, and should really breathe. I'm taking care of my girl, and her puppies will be in good hands. The last thing I will do is ever allow any of her puppies to go to anything BUT a good home. I am not in it just for the money as many of you suggest. I don't need the money, and its not like I'm going to pocket it. Any money we get from selling the puppies will be used to pay off the vet bills I know will accumulate during her pregnancy I'm not an idiot, I know that she will only have 2 or 3 puppies, and we will probably lose more than we will gain throughout the entire process, and I am not going to be like many breeders.  ( Sadly, including the one where I got my own puppies) where they just have you sign a paper, and don't care what happens after they get their money. For example- when I got shadow, he was four months, and there I saw sasha, she was 5 weeks. She told us Sasha wouldn't be ready until she was 8 weeks, but didn't tell us how old she was. However, we told her that whenever sasha was ready, we would be. That woman only wanted her money, and called us the day sasha turned six weeks, saying she was ready. We assumed she was 8 weeks, but she was only six. Just at the legal limit, she should have been with her mom for another two weeks. We didn't realize her age until two days later, when our vet told us she didn't look like she was 8 weeks, and we looked at her AKC papers, and realized she was 6 weeks.

 

Anyway, my point is that my puppies will be adopted out on completely different terms. They will not be taken home until a minimum of 8 weeks. The adopters have to bring my puppy to the vet for shots within a week of adoption. If they can no longer care for the puppy, they have to return it to me, so I can find it a suitable home, and I will check up on each of the puppies two months after adoption to make sure everything is okay. I know I will find them homes, because already a nice woman from my old church is asking about her due date, as well as several family members who would love to adopt a puppy. I will not allow any stranger from the street to take one away without being sure that they will be in good hands.

 

I feel that many of your responses are uncalled for and mean spirited.

If you really cared for animals as you say you do, instead of trying to put me down for having a pregnant bitch, you would offer advice ( as some of you have, and I thank those of you who have) There is no point in yelling at me for having a pregnant bitch, what is done, is done. My only regret is that she is still fairly young. If you people cared for animals, then you would discourage a person thinking of breeding with information- and you would help a person who has already bred with information- instead of trying to put them down and talk about how sickening it is to you.

 

I understand that many people are angered by people who aren't professionals, breeding their dogs, but I personally feel that allowing my girl to have a litter or two, as long as I make sure I am personally responsible to finding them all good homes, and am willing to care for the puppies as long as needed, and I make sure that none of my puppies will end up in a pound or a street somewhere, that it isn't this huge evil thing that so many of you are making it out to be.

Well, first I’m going to try to soften things that others have said.. It isn’t so much about professionals breeding dogs – it is about making sure that the healthiest, best examples of the breed are being produced – and in very small numbers. Many of us work in rescue here, and sometimes sound off very bluntly. The issue is, every puppy you, as a “hobby breeder” adopt out means that a puppy in rescue or a shelter loses a chance. It may not seem like one or two litters makes a difference, but trust me – it does. My local shelter has to put down two sheltie pups because the people who were going to adopt them ended up buying shelties from a local backyard breeder instead. The same thing happened with a Chihuahua the month before, and a whole litter of beagles over the course of two weeks. The number of dogs and cats in shelters now, being put down because there aren’t enough homes, is astronomical.

Now, you may ask, what about these so-called “professional breeders”? Don’t the dogs they produce have the same effect? Well, yes. But --- in order to keep breeds alive, breeds must be bred – and because of the current shelter crisis, ONLY, only the healthiest, proven, generationally disease free, certified dogs of a breed should be bred. Which means dogs who have impeccable health histories through the generations, have proven themselves in conformation or obedience and things of that nature, etc. It may sound “elitist” but – for example - considering how many sad Labrador faces I see in the pound, I don’t think ANYONE has any business breeding their Labradors except someone with dogs of absolutely near-perfect standards, spotless health throughout their generations, certification of  freedom for breed-specific genetic problems, and various accomplishments, to keep the breed alive and provide the absolute highest-quality dogs in small numbers..

Now, on to advice related issues.

Has the female actually been tested to see if she is pregnant? Remember, you will have to wait to do radiographs to make sure of numbers and size. 

Is there history of heart disease in your poodles’ pedigrees? Mini poodles are notorious for heart problems. Be prepared for extensive cardiac testing of the pups, if you aren't sure.

What health testing has been done? Remember that if the pups you are selling are at risk for things like congenitally luxated patellas, mitral valve regurg, etc - you WILL have to inform buyers of that, which may make the pups less easy to play - be aware of that. It would be unethical to not mention it.

I would begin finding prospective homes now. Draft contracts for them to sign. Maintain very close communication with your vet, and makes sure you have enough money saved up in case of things like emergency C-sections and difficult births. Do not vaccinate while she is pregnant. I would also up the minimum age to 10 weeks. 8 weeks is still a bit early for my liking in terms of adopting out/selling pups.

 Just some information if you plan to keep her intact and possibly not breed her on the next heat cycle...those diapers are ONLY to keep the blood off things.  Dogs can VERY EASILY MATE WITH A DIAPER ON!!!!  Please keep this in mind for next time!  I've seen quite a few dogs bred WITH A DIAPER and I mention it to ALL of my customers who buy one.

DellaBella

as for your concerns that I'm not experienced in whelping- I'm not. I'm 15 years old to be honest. But I am confident that things will go smoothly. I am enrolled in an ag science course at school, and am taking intro to vet science right now. My teacher loves to base her lessons off of probems the students are having with their animals. So I am expecting quite a few lessons in dog pregnancy and whelping in the upcoming weeks. Also, my aunt whom is very experienced in whelping ( she grew up on a farm/rancch in texas) lives a street away and has told me to call her when the time comes.

     Good for you for educating yourself about the whelping process - however, don't ever be confident that things will go smoothly! Ever! Take up the boy scout's motto and "Be Prepared". I have gauze, syptic powder on hand in case the bitch pulls the umbilical cord and accidentally rips open the pup (it can happen), especially if you pull on a pup while the bitch is not having contractions. Are you prepared to see dead or mummified puppies? Whelping a litter is not somethign to be taken matter of factly. You will need to assist the bitch with all her pups, shake them down after birth, etc. It's tiring, stressful, and extremely time consuming. If the pups need to be supplemented, it's your responsibility to do that. Can you manage that and school at the same time? Oh, and forget your social life. Friends are BANNED from the whelping room as they may track in viruses that can kill a pup, who is born with virtually no immune system. And forget "hanging out" with friends ... you'll have no time for that for at least 8 weeks ...
     There is also more to dog breeding than the whelping process. Do you know what conformation/health/temperament faults are in the bitch's line as well as the dogs? Do they compliment each other, genetically?
     Definitely check out this site, it's very comprehensive & may help you  http://www.debbiejensen.com/
     BTW, to answer one of your first questions - NO - never under any circumstances do you give flea/tick treatments or vaccinations to a bitch who has been bred. I don't know why you'd breed them if they did have fleas? Have they been wormed? You will need to have a good wormer on hand for when the pups are between 1-2 weeks old, and ever 2-3 weeks thereafter after they're born. The only think I kno wof that may be safe to use on a preggo bitch is Bug Off Garlic www.springtime.com - but defintiely contact the company and inquire first. Those fleas need to be gone now, because they will cause a pregnant bitch and the pups to become anemic ...