my girl's whelp

I've always used an excellent all life stages food, but I do put bitches in whelp on puppy.  Unfortunately, I don't usually get them until later in the pregnancy.  I've never added things like cottage cheese and yogart.  As I said earlier, some brands of cottage cheese can really TASTE salty, so you know that the sodium is really high.  Yogart though?  Mine get a dollop periodically anyway.  If that is something they are used to getting should that be eliminated during whelp?

calliecritturs

A female is "fertile" during her entire heat.  All 3 weeks of it.  A female dog drops about 20 eggs each time they cycle.  They don't just get 'pregnant' like humans do.  They can get pregnant with EACH mounting.  (Go ahead check me on this -- I'm right, unfortunately)

that means he likely impregnated her the first week, the 2d and the 3rd.  That means you have puppies in THREE stages in there and because he's so much larger than she is that could be a huge birthing problem (emphasis on size as well as the size of the problem).

Remember dogs only gestate around 62 days.  That means those that were conceived the 3rd week will wind up getting born the same time the first ones are (typically there is one 'birth' but some CAN get stuck in the birth canal).

Pups are born SO immature they can't see nor hear (that's why the eyes are closed till the 2d week - the eyes aren't mature enough TO see).  So they are already very very immature when they are born.  The pups from the 3rd and likely 2d weeks couplings likely may not survive or be still born.

Sorry Calliecritturs, but this information is actually incorrect. Breeders believed this to be true for a very long time, but science has shown it to be a myth.

All puppies in a litter are the same age. Here is how it works. All the eggs that will be produced are ovulated within a 24 hour period. They take three days to mature to the point they are ready for fertilization. After that the eggs only remain viable for about a day. If there is viable sperm in the uterus at that time then all the eggs will be fertilized on that day.

The reason that breedings can be successful at different times during a heat cycle is because sperm can survive in the uterus for a week or more.

Puppies can be small or appear immature for various reasons, mainly being at a location in the uterus that is getting a poor blood supply, or a problem with the health of that individual puppy.

No, actually they can -- and if you ever did rescue you will see it's not at all uncommon to have different siblings resemble completely different breeds.  Now as to 'when' or what the specific length of time is between breedings ... you'd have to ask them.  But they surely can conceive with different sires during the same pregnancy.

I did not say anything about different fathers. Yes of course puppies in a litter can have different fathers. It has even happened with human twins. In fact, my current youngster came from a litter that had to be DNAd because there was an accidental breeding. Luckily for the breeder all the puppies were sired by the correct dog.

I was only responding to what you said about puppies in a litter being conceived at different times and being different ages. All puppies in a litter must be the same age because the time of fertilization is determined by the time of ovulation which happens over one day, not the time of the breedings. The timing of the breedings are totally irrelevant when it comes to the age of the puppies and the due date for that matter.

Hi, I haven't been able to get online for a while.

I had a good talk with my vet, and of course I will take his recomandations above anything I read online.

He told me that theres no reason to worry about the size difference- her body will make up for that difference, by having less puppies. He said to only expect a 1-3 puppy litter, he also told me to gradually switch her over to puppy food, and once she enters the last week and a half of pregnancy, to never ever leave her with the male.

I have built her whelping box (with guard rails and all) and am getting her used to sleeping in it. THe boy will sleep in a cage at night, and during the day when I'm at school, she will be left in the hallway, with acess only to my bedroom (where she can get to her whelping box) and my boy will be left in the kitchen. They are so used to being together, that they panic when they are apart, and so I will put up a gate that neither can climb seperating them, so that they can still see eachother.

My vet told me that the puppy food will be enough, the yogurt and cottege cheese isn't necessary, or recomended because dogs aren't good at processing cow's milk.

 He told me I should get her tested for worms, and then put her on intercepter and frontline. OTC flea meds are too harsh for her, but frontline is safe. Thankfully, and quite strangley, the fleas have dissapeard. I have groomed her thoroughly and have not spoted any fleas, or flea dirt. He also told me not to worry about assisting with the whelping, as more then likely I will simply one morning, and the puppies will all be there.

I am however, reading up as I am still going to watch her carefully for signs of labor- I want to be there in case anything does go wrong, and I am reading up on warning signs. (such as green discharge before a puppy, suggesting a stillborn, green is only okay after a puppy) etc, etc.

My girl is due in two weeks, and she is right on track with everything. shes showing a bit, and getting used to her whelping box.

 You may not agree with it, but in two weeks I will have puppies, and I am prepared and excited.

"thank you" for all your harsh critisims and put downs. I am going to continue to care for my girl, as she gets ready to whelp.

Having whelped many litters, I'm going to slightly disagree with your vet.  There can be complications and it's rarely as easy as waking up and finding babies born.  When there are fewer pups, they tend to get larger.  One of my cockers had a litter of two.  The pups were SO big that she could not deliver them without help.  And help isn't pulling out one who is stuck because doing that can cause horrible damage to the pup.  Anytime that the male is significantly larger than the female, and a few pounds IS significant in a toy breed, there is a chance of her whelping too big pups that could kill her.

In my experience green is not something you ever, ever want to see, before, during or after a pup is born.

I will say again......no one was trying to be harsh.  Many of us work in rescue, many of us volunteer with or work for shelters and see first hand the results of careless breeding.  And, we were very concerned about your bitch.

I do hope that everything turns out well, and I do hope that you'll come back and let us know that momma AND the pups survived the whelp.

WHY are you even breeding? You haven't had your pets tested, so you're obviously not breeding to better the breed. I just don't understand it. You're willing to put your own dog at risk for some puppies.

I have 3 foster pups right now. The one was a result from the mom being smaller than the dad. When I got the pup - he was almost dead. He's fine now, but he almost didn't make it. I really hope you and those people that bred my little foster learn the lessons they need to learn and not do things like this.

I hope you're prepared for things to go wrong, both mentally, and financially. Puppies are not cheap when cared for properly.

If I recall this wasn't an intentional breeding.

This dog is only a couple weeks from whelping so being critical is a bit like locking the barn door AFTER the horses have been stolen.  While this is far from an ideal situation, and for the sake of the bitch I believe that a spay/abortion would have been safer, at this point, it's really counter productive to be critical.

Anyone who can offer concrete suggestions, I'm sure they would be appreciated.

DellaBella

 You may not agree with it, but in two weeks I will have puppies, and I am prepared and excited.

"thank you" for all your harsh critisims and put downs. I am going to continue to care for my girl, as she gets ready to whelp.

This post, you have to understand, is a far cry from your first post and your emphasis on "sex withdrawl" and the unplanned nature of the pregnancy.  I'm reminded tonight in several completely different posts, that very often how an original post is worded can SO determine how people respond to it. 

This isn't a criticism of you Dellabella, and please don't take it as such.  You've obviously done your 'crash course' in learning about whelping ... and it sounds like you've got yourself prepared and you're willing to do whatever your girl needs to keep her safe.  For that, a big huge pat on the back from me.  That had to be a scarey thing to do!!

By it's very nature, dog messageboards tend to be full of passionate people.   Shoot -- if you surf around you'll find full blown arguments about everything from nutrition to training methods and even health issues.  Why?  Because people care -- 99.99999% of the people who 'post' on here love their dogs dearly.  That's why they DO post.

Your original post simply hit 'hot buttons' with a lot of people -- people who have gone to great lengths not only to avoid such, but many of whom work in rescue (where the results of such accidental pregnancies are euthanized regularly).  So, altho you aren't one to simply panic and bolt, your post brought out the more protective instincts in many folks.  I realize your initial post was borne out of frustration and panic as well -- but I just wanted you to understand often theads like this can take a difficult turn because *everyone* gets a bit frustrated and too many have seen people forge ahead without proper precautions and have unfortunately been involved in the dire clean-up.  

It's my hope that you'll continue to post and seek advice and feedback from those who are experienced in whelping.  Hopefully this has helped you as a learning experience -- I'm sorry it wasn't all positive for you, but at least you do know people care.  Sometimes it's a shock to people that *some* folks may care more about the dogs than the humans involved.  But dog people can often be wired that way.

I'm glad you're working closely with your vet -- that truly is the absolute best option.  So often people try to get by without vet help, and it can be disasterous.  Sounds like you've done a lot to be prepared.  Good for you!

 Good luck!! 

whtsthfrequency

The issue is, every puppy you, as a “hobby breeder” adopt out means that a puppy in rescue or a shelter loses a chance.

That's NOT true, it's a popular quote put out by the animal rights people to try to criminalize breeders.  Pet people go to breeders because they want the health guarantees, socialization, and predictability of personality and type that comes with buying a purebred from a breeder.  Puppies in rescues and shelters are generally adopted anyway, it's the adults that are more likely to die. 

 Clearly these puppies are going to be born so why not support the OP and try to give these puppies their best chance?  The OP 'speaks' with more maturity than a lot of people who breed, let's take the opportunity to teach. 

 OP:  It's not too late to do health clearances, better a little late than never!  There is no reason that hip/patellar xrays can't be done, 1-2 xrays really aren't damaging to the puppies.  I would recommend doing both an ultrasound at 28 days and an xray in her last few days of pregnancy just to monitor the number and size of the pups.  Do not feed mom more until later in the pregnancy, you don't want gargantuan puppies.  A lot of great breeders have made mistakes, when the question was asked at a local kennel club 'how many of you got your first dogs from a pet store?' a shocking number of hands went up.  We all have to start somewhere.  Having puppies isn't easy, particularly in toy breeds.  Not only are the births sometimes complicated and need a c-section, the little squirts are prone to hypoglycemia and having karo syrup around is a must.  I breed mals which are easy whelpers but I tech in a big ER clinic and have seen my share of fading puppies and c-sections. 

When my girl is in season, my males all get Melatonin and on the really bad days, they get a little benadryl to take the edge off.  The Melatonin takes the edge off nicely until you hit the worst of it.  I would recommend having a dog crate to put her in, a wire one is fine so he can still see her but make sure he can't get to her, breedings can happen through a cage.  I always have 2 barriers between my girl and my boys just to make sure there are no 'oops' breedings.

Going forward, I would recommend trying to get in touch with a good breeder in your area, preferably a poodle breeder if that's what you want to breed but any breed will do.  You may find a good mentor to work with if you think this may be something you'd like to do more seriously in the future.  You'll learn how to pick the right dogs, read a pedigree, and about using some genes to your advantage.  I was 16 when some dog show breeder/handlers took me into the kennel and taught me a bit, sent me to the shows with another handler to help groom, then I got my first mal when I was 22 and 5 years later had my first well planned litter.  You don't have to be a show person to breed, but I would recommend proving your dogs in some area like agility, obedience, whatever, if you intend to breed.  Know what you're working with.  I don't like backyard breeding but if people are intent on breeding, we should at least offer them the tools to a better job.

 And your vet is awful, please look into a new one.  He has given you a lot of bad advice. 

I, too was a bit weary of my original vet, so before I called him, I called a different vets office that I had gone to once before, and asked them about the possibility of the pups being to big to pass, the first time i called they suggested that some pups would be born mini, others born toys, and the minis would be too big to pass. It didn't make much sense to me that the minis and toys would have that big of a size difference at birth, so I called again, and asked again. This time, I asked specifically how big of a chance there would be that the pups would be too big to pass, and they told me that they can't give me an exact statistic, but that even when you breed two same sized dogs, there are chances that the pups will be too big, so I should bring her in for an x-ray. This time, she didn't say size was a major concern, so I wanted to be sure, and I called my original vet who laid things out quite simply for me, instead of just hinthing toward this or that like the other vets office did.

I thank the few of you who are trying to be helpful,  it is greatly appreciated.

I agree that many people mistook my intent on the first post, it was more of a vent at my boy's eccentric behavior than anything, I wasn't panicing at the behavior, and I did expect that kind of behavior, just not to the point where he wouldn't sleep.

When I posted that, I expected responses such as "Yes, I certainly know that behavior! He should calm down in a week or so..." etc. etc.

Everything seems to be going perfectly well,

as for the food, my pups have food available at all times, at they pick at it throughout the day, and I noticed that instead of spending 5-10 minutes picking at the bowl at a time, she spends 20 minutes.

THanks again for those of you who are trying to help.

DellaBella

I had a good talk with my vet, and of course I will take his recomandations above anything I read online.

Please DellaBella, if you rethink anything that you have already thought about, Please Please rethink this statement.  Most of us have at one point or another put blind trust in a vet and lost big time.  I love my vet.  He's a great vet, that is also a musher, so all the better for someone with my breed.  But, he's busy.  Sometimes he just doesn't have time to go into depth on things that I am concerned about.  My friend, who also goes to this vet and knows him well, had her Lead Dog sent home with a slight virus because he missed the call.  Echo died in December from the illness that was first said to be not a big deal.  

Ask your vet what courses in Dog Nutrition he has taken.  Did you know that to become a vet, you do not need to know anything about dog nutrition?  Many people don't know that and end up feeding their dogs foods like Iams and Pedigree and Science Diet because their vet thinks its a good idea.  Many dogs are lactose intollerant, that is true, but theres a difference in yogurt and cottage cheese, which is why many of us feed it to our dogs.  As a Lactose Intollerant person, I can eat yogurt and cottage cheese, or any cooked cheese, but hand me a glass of milk and I'm running to the toilet every 3 minutes.(TMI I know)  Many vets will still tell you that raw chicken bones are bad for dogs.  Some will still say that feeding raw meat of any type can cause aggression in dogs.  Heck, some give out rawhides in their puppy packages.  

So do your own research.  Make your own decisions.  If your vet waves off your concerns as a dog owner, be very careful.  Pups that are too big are a huge concern in toy breeds.  I don't know any breeders that just expect to wake up to puppies.  They know when the pups are coming and they are there for it.  And a vet that laughs off your questions about being there to assist or worries about possible C-sections is not a good vet in my opinion.  

That's NOT true, it's a popular quote put out by the animal rights people to try to criminalize breeders.

 Fore the record, I despise animal rights people. And this is not a breeder. This is an oops litter.  I'm not going to go down the list of dogs I know who have been put down in the various shelters in my area, or not adopted out of rescue, because people initially showed interest and then later told us "Oh no, sorry, we got a puppy from my friend's dog who had puppies by some other dog, or my mom's dog who accidentely had puppies with my friend's dog, or this awesome peke-poo "breeder", or mini teacup chihuahua "breeder", etc.....

Pet people go to breeders because they want the health guarantees, socialization, and predictability of personality and type that comes with buying a purebred from a breeder.

And they aren't going to get any of this from the OP. *Educated* people go to *good breeders* for this, I agree. BUT, do you have any idea how many stupid people go to irresponsible breeders, pet stores, brokers, etc? They MUCH outweigh the smarter ones. Pet people, as a majority, do not go to reputable breeding sources.

Puppies in rescues and shelters are generally adopted anyway, it's the adults that are more likely to die.

 ....you have got to be kidding me. In my area, puppies are generally the hardest to adopt out, and I know that isn't a unique trend - because no one wants to deal with housebreaking, etc (and why oh why would you want a throwaway shelter puppy when you can get an oh-so-cute puggle) Should have been with me last week when we had to euth 5 beagle puppies. Two of which were going to be adopted, but we got word at the last minute that the adopters, a well-meaning but uneducated-in-the-ways-of-BYBs and the like college couple, were getting 5 wk old puppies from "my uncle and aunts beagle and pug who had puppies, they weren't expecting it but they are so cute....".