Early Spay vs Growth

The simple answer is that I just don't know.  With my female shepherds, I've had vets suggest waiting through the first heat because the girls were on the small side and it was thought that going through a heat cycle would enhance their growth.  With the BOYS though, anything before a year was discouraged simply because cutting off those male hormones too soon could interfere with the normal growth and cause them to remain more "puppy like"in body.

I've gotten different answers for why to wait from different vets.But, I've ALWAYS been told to wait, by vets.   And I read a very long time ago that it's not a good idea to alter a large breed pup before the first birthday at the earliest so I've always tried to avoid that.

I have two brothers from the last foster litter.  Tyler was altered at 9 months because he had to be put under for an abcessed tooth.  Tyler is more puppy like in his body structure. leggy, tall, not very filled out yet.  He's closing in on 3, but, still has that young dog look.  BUT, he also spent two months in a "forever" home that feed him Pedigree and really grew quickly during that time period.  Theo, on the other hand, is much shorter, much more solid looking.  Theo had undescended testicles and the vets kept wanting to "wait" to give them a chance to drop.  He wasn't altered until 18 months or so.  So, is the difference when they were altered, or environmental or genetic?  I don't know.  There were variances in their early lives.

On the whole, I'd rather err on the side of caution and wait until around 18 months to alter a large breed, but is it scientifically proven that it's better?  I can't answer that.  There are arguments on both sides.

 I don't know why, but I see it....

Emma was spayed, by the shelter, at 8 weeks. When I got her, she had short, stumpy little legs (a little longer than a Dachshund's). Now, at 4 years, she is nearly square. She didn't stop gaining height until she was 3. She grew really weird, and she has a couple of unusual behavior traits. Her face is also very "doggy". People are always calling her "him" and "he". I see a definite difference in her and a bitch who's been allowed to mature before being spayed. 

I have no idea, I'll be honest until this forum I had always heard 6 mos was the time to do it.  I hesitate to imagine how big Bugsy would be had he not been snipped at about 10 wks (rescue does them as they come in).  If this is the puppy body version goodness gracious that's all I can say, never mind dane he just be be part mastiff. 

My neighbor has the biggest GR you could imagine.  He is longer than Bugs and about the same height or taller (best part of 29";).  He runs around 108lbs these days (7 yrs old) but has been as much as 120lbs.  he looks good now, not a ton of muscle but he's the laziest dog I have ever known.  I believe has was neutered at 6 mos.

Bugsy's girlfriend is about 75lbs at 2.5 and probably 25-26" and was spayed at 6 mos. Her owner's sister has been an active breeder for 20+ years and I have heard them talking about the different lines and how they vary in size, coat, bone structure etc

Honestly I see so many goldens around here of so many different sizes that I think that whatever the 'standard' is there is a wide variety of genetics

I "heard" (and my recent vet confirmed) every heat cycle a female has can increase the chances of a variety of issues (ie breast cancer) which were risks I didn't want.

I think people messing with genetics is the biggest issue. Maxine looks like a male, she is tall and square, she definitely has a female GR head but with a name like Max we get called "him" a lot. Now I think Belle is completely feminine especially in her head. She is a girly girl, but more often than not we have people come up and say "that is the biggest male lab they have ever seen, is it purebred?" My response is Yes papered, and female. The eyes pop our of heads and jaws drop. She did NOT look overweight at almost 120 pounds because she carried it so well. Don't all of us ladies wish we all did. She is down to 85 now, she stands (soon to be officially measured) roughly 27 inches. This is a female Lab. Teddi is petite in build (still maturing though) but LONG legs, she does not look much smaller than Belle.
 

Maxs Mom

Can someone please explain to me about how spaying "early" can lead to larger dogs? This does not make sense to me.

Say in the case of Goldens or GSDs, they have a predisposition for joint dysplasia. Continued bone growth could make the disease worse.

This is an oversimplification but hopefully it gets the idea across.

Not all Veterinarians agree with this line of thinking.

Until Myrika, we spayed at 6 months. The contract with the breeder was to NOT spay prior to 18 months. So, she had two very bloody heat cycles before 20 months when she was spayed. It was not a pleasant experience but I'm glad we waited.

The MSPCA in Boston did studies on early spay/neuter about ten years ago, I'm sure you could access these results on line.  My Regan is the result of one of their studies, she was spayed at 3 months.  She has had no issues with the procedure. 

Maxs Mom

I "heard" (and my recent vet confirmed) every heat cycle a female has can increase the chances of a variety of issues (ie breast cancer) which were risks I didn't want. I think people messing with genetics is the biggest issue.

 There can also be an increased risk of a variety of issues if bitches are spayed young. Despite what is PC, there are pros and cons of altering, just like anything else.

 Genetics are not the issue with growth problems in early altered animals. Early would be anything before physcial maturity. Growth issues are seen in dogs, cats, ferrets, llamas and my guess is any other animal which has it's reproductive organs removed while still growing.

  In my litters there is a clear and obvious difference in the dogs which were altered young and those which were left intact until at least maturity. The differences have been similar in all the early alters and have not been present in the intact dogs. These issues are - odd angulation, lack of muscling and an overall tall, leggy look. The early neuter males never get a full coat typical for the breed and there is overall lack of sex characteristics. Early altering delays the closing of the growth plates, which is why you tend to get taller but less substantial dogs. This also means that the bones may not be in proportion with each other, depending on when the dog was altered and if some growth plates had already closed.

  This article by a "dog sports vet" outlines the issues with early altering, the reasons for the issues and studies which have been done on the subject. http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

 The above link is a good one.Also take a look at this one:

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

FTR i m against juvenile spaying and neutering 

The presence of sex hormones encourages things like growth plate closing, good bone density, and proper bone development/remodeling.

Lack of these (early fixing) will cause the bones to slowly keep growing for a slightly longer period of time, and you generally end up with longer and lighter-bones dogs.

This isn't a problem in most breeds, BUT for giant/large breeds, whose skeletons are very dependent upon proper weight to length ratios and things like that, it can be a problem. For example, the tibia usually stops growing at ~ 12 mo. If there are no sex hormones to properly signal the tibia to stop (ie, spayed before 1 yr) it will continue to grow ever so slightly and change the tibial plateau angle. Again, not a problem in the majority of breeds. But, in giant breeds, the slight change in weight-bearing and bone length versus strength and density (sex hormones also increase bone densit) it can predispose them to instabilities especially cranial cruciate rupture which is directly tied to the TPA.

 

What about high performance or working dogs who put a lot of stress on their bones?  

 Hmm, that is a good question! I really don't know. It is more of a "bone proportion" and "muscle to bone ratio" problem with the giant breeds, rather than a matter of how hard they work their muscles/bones (although high amounts of exercise would exacerbate any problem there was). But in terms of a normal sized but very hard-working dog, I'm not sure. Time to go hunt for info! ;)

Considering the amount of stress on a performance/working dog's bones, I'd think it would make a difference. I am fairly certain (though nobody knows her lines) that it made a difference in how my small dog grew. Some time soon, we'll be sedating her for a good x ray to see if this hip of hers is dysplastic, or if it's something else causing the problem. Growth plates closing properly certainly wouldn't have hurt her, but I don't think it would have helped a whole lot. She isn't a working dog, or a high performance dog, due to congenital issues. She might've been, had she been able bodied.

I can see a working Border Collie (even thought they're a much smaller breed) having big issues if the bones grew incorrectly. A constantly performing agility or flyball dog probably puts a LOT of stress on their bones, as well, right? 

Thank you for your input.

You know in horses if you keep a male in tact, they usually stop growing between 3 and 4. A gelding "can" grow for a longer period. That jogged my memory when you referenced "giant" breeds. However I do know if a colt is growing extremely fast they will castrate to slow the growth down. So my guess has always been they get to the same size either way just gelding might slow the process. We had a horse grow 3 inches between his fifth and sixth birthday (papered TB so we were sure of his age).

I will be curious to see your response to the performance dog question. I do know you don't want to do too much until their growth plates close and that is the tactic I have taken with my dogs. Fun, simple, no stress and no "jumps" until they are one year old. My dogs being big dogs, I let them jump 8" since they just step over it.
 

jennie_c_d

I can see a working Border Collie (even thought they're a much smaller breed) having big issues if the bones grew incorrectly. A constantly performing agility or flyball dog probably puts a LOT of stress on their bones, as well, right? 

 Really the issue with altering and growth can affect any breed. Even small dogs can have issues if their proportions are skewed or they don't develop the bone density they should. It is all around best to wait until the dog is mature if you want to alter IMO.