Has anyone use Conservative Mgmt (ie: no surgery) or TCVM for a torn ligament ?

I haven't dealt specifically with that in one of my dogs, but I've known others treating that way many times.   

Seriously, in the vast scheme of 17 - 19 years, six weeks is nothing.  Even the whole 20 months of his IMHA is nothing compared with his whole life.

If she's too antsy lower the protein, give her something like oat seed (Herb Pharm makes a good one) or Calms (and you can give those during the day) -- it will help keep her (and you) from climbing wlls.  (and yeah -- take some yourself if you need to!!!!)

You won't know unless you give it a fair shot -- if it even prolongs the surgery until she's older (and more laid back) it will be worth it.  Compare it to something like heartworm where you have 3-4 MONTHS of crate rest.  Ack!!!

LOL - I'm not compaining about the crate rest anymore - its frustrating, but its necessary

I was just wondering if anyone had 'real life experience' using tcvm / acupuncture for ccl issues.   And 17 - 19 years would be VERY nice :)  

Conservative Mgmt is 6 months recovery - the same schedule as with surgery.    I've read that the the surgery is used merely to stabalize the knee and that the same scar tissue forms as with conservative management.  With larger dogs the surgery is pretty much necessary (although some would disagree even with that) since there's more weight on the joint during the actual healing (scar tissue formation).

Exactly -- and so much of it all hinges on the lifestyle you accustom her to.  If she continues to ram and tear, no matter that she may get hurt, she probably will.  I tend to have a more laid back household -- they get the zoomies occasionally but I tend to train mine to be more sedate because otherwise they'll trip me and I'll go down like a house of cards. 

But they're happy as long as they're with me.  You might honestly want to do some training with her -- something weird like tracking or even Rally.  so she can 'do' and get all the fun zoomies out and yet keep risk minimal.

I wish I had more hands-on experience, but Dr. Rimar might know of someone you could talk to.

I'm also attempting this. Tasha had her right knee repaired October 11, and is doing very well but may require repair of her left leg.

Last week I got the news that 7 1/2 year old Floyd (a large dog) has mild arthritis in both knees and a bit of fluid behind them, which may indicate partial tears in both knees. In other words, if we do one knee, we do two knees. He gets very fearful and depressed after surgery, and I'm not willing to put him through six months of rehab at his present level of functioning. Even under sedation both knees are still stable, and he basically does fine unless he chases balls. He has a bit of stiffness when he gets up, if and only if, he sleeps with his knees curled. When he sleeps stretched out he's OK. We have an appointment next week to evaluate him for physical therapy and for accupuncture. I think at the very least, they may speed the healing process if he does have surgery.

For me, it is also somewhat a question of time and money. With three dogs that have all had issues in the last two years, the savings account needs replenishment. In addition to the work I do for our business, I've accepted a part-time position with an accounting firm through the tax season. The hours are flexible, but I'm not sure about working 50-60 hours a week and rehabbing a dog or possibly two dogs at the same time. Tasha has required two to three hours per day of individual attention for the last eight weeks. If Floyd worsens, I'll figure out a way to manage, but I'd like to explore other options first.

Best wishes for both of you surviving the stress of crate rest and for a full recovery.

This brace might be worth a look:

http://www.woundwear.com/product3.cfm

Oh queen of the medical links, I am ever so grateful for your knowledge. This may be just the ticket to retaining Floyd's current, acceptable, level of function.

It's not cheap but at 10 percent of the price of bilateral surgery, if it has a greater than 10 percent chance of success, it is a bargain financially. And that's without calculating the mental hardship.

I've printed out the information and will be discussing this with both the regular vet and with the rehab veterinarian.

I really, truly thank you from the bottom of my heart. I'm filled with optimism and will let you know what the veterinarians think.

Stacita

I'm also attempting this.

Wow, four knees in total !   I've read that if one ccl goes that there is a 50% chance of it happening to the other knee - that's another thing I'm hoping the TCVM / acupuncture will do - strengthen the other knee so I don't have to go through this again !   I couldn't imagine two dogs each with problems in both their knees - my heart really goes out to you.

Keep us posted on the vet visit.    Will you be bringing Tasha also ?   I'd be very interested to hear how they think the acupuncture will work (ie: would it relieve inflammation and aid scar tissue formation, or do they expect that the partial tears can actually reverse ?).

There are two yahoo groups that deal with alot of these issues.  One is orthodogs the other is called ConservativeManagement.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodogs/messages

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ConservativeManagement/messages

At the very least you'll get alot of support there - so many people are going through this

Stacita

It's not cheap but at 10 percent of the price of bilateral surgery, if it has a greater than 10 percent chance of success, it is a bargain financially. And that's without calculating the mental hardship.

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh she TALKS like an accountant!! *grin* (running away before I get smacked)

Callie,

I was an ecomomics major. Tasha's right knee is a "sunk cost". When I evaluate Tasha's expenses in the future, it is illogical to consider the cost of that knee because it is done and gone. When Floyd went through his battle with multiple mast cell cancer, it really helped me to think that way. I was able to consider each surgery, each visit to a holistic vet, etc. as a fresh beginning. I'm happy to say Floyd has shown no signs of cancer in two years. December 13, 2005, was the last. It is a possibility that severe stress could trigger it.

But I always know the value of these dogs. If two knees need to be done, they'll be done before too much arthritis settles. I love this dog and I know him. I'm happy with the choices I made for Tasha, but maybe Floyd needs different care. Tasha is stoic and Floyd is not. If she limps severely, she's feeling more pain than his occasional mild limp. He gets an owie and runs to mommy for a good cuddle. She doesn't.

You guys are cracking me up - I have a dual major - accounting and economics ..... is that sad or what ??

My main reason for trying the conservative mgmt route is not about the cost of the surgery - the herbs, acupuncture, and tcvm visits are going to end up costing me almost as much as the surgery anyway.   My real reasons are the surgery risks itself, and on top of that the recuperation time.    If I can get good results with a faster recuperation I'm a happy happy happy camper.

Prancer is too playful - she can't be out of the crate, even with her lease on and the strictest supervision.  If there's a way for her to jump, she jumps - if there's a half chance she can run, she tries.    She's getting a little calmer but she's still in her crate 80% of the day.   Last night I let her play with her favorite toy for a little while - she played "kill the fuzzy bone" by herself for a little while (shaking it) then she started tossing it and chasing after it.   It was SO good to see her play like that but I only let her do it for 30 seconds - I had to stop her from causing further damage to the ligament.

NO calming treatments I've tried have worked.  DAP diffuser, nothing.   Some camomile cap thingies - nothing.  Calms Forte, nothing.   I got a $50 bottle of some homepathic calming thing from the doc last time - NOTHING !    I have to wonder if even valium would work on her !!!!   Doc R said Prancer has a "fire constitution" - boy oh boy, she wasn't kidding !!!

Stacita

I was an ecomomics major. Tasha's right knee is a "sunk cost". When I evaluate Tasha's expenses in the future, it is illogical to consider the cost of that knee because it is done and gone. When Floyd went through his battle with multiple mast cell cancer, it really helped me to think that way. I was able to consider each surgery, each visit to a holistic vet, etc. as a fresh beginning.

I wasn't scolding you at all!!  I'm MARRIED to an accountant!!!  It just tickled me to see you slide into that same mode David does.  "cost benefit anaylsis" -- and it always comes out in the dog's best interest with him too -- but I tease HIM about "talking like an accountant" .

I was just giggling because it's like each of these dogs tends to be sent to each of us for  purpose.  ME? I'm the mommy-healer, pack-understander type.  I'm gonna help everbuddy's owies, and if you go to mom she'll make you feel better.  Dad, altho we both work and contribute, he's the one with the calculator in his brain of what we have to do to make this happen.

Stacita

I'm happy to say Floyd has shown no signs of cancer in two years. December 13, 2005, was the last. It is a possibility that severe stress could trigger it.

But I always know the value of these dogs. If two knees need to be done, they'll be done before too much arthritis settles. I love this dog and I know him. I'm happy with the choices I made for Tasha, but maybe Floyd needs different care. Tasha is stoic and Floyd is not. If she limps severely, she's feeling more pain than his occasional mild limp. He gets an owie and runs to mommy for a good cuddle. She doesn't.

But you bring up such a VALID IMPORTANT POINT.  What one dog can tolerate another dog may not want to.  I think it's important to consider that too.

David and I were talking the other day -- the first cocker we had who had so many varied health issues (demodex, ear problems/ear ablations/deafness, cancer and treatment) -- for him he'd go thru ANYTHING if it meant he could minister to his beloved kids at the hospitals and cancer centers -- it was as if he saw each and every challenge in his life as something more he had in common with a sick child.

BILLY, on the other paw, is NOT like that.  giving, loving, and he loves pet therapy in his own way.  BUT he is not as motivated to go thru extreme "feeling bad" the way Muffin was. 

We've spent a boodle of money on Billy BUT everything we did completely alleviated suffering right away.  If he ever had something that would require a severely decreased quality of life the "decision" for him would be COMPLETELY different than it was for Muffin.  The hard part with Muffin was knowing where to put the period at the end because as far as he was concerned if he could help even one more child NO PROBLEM I don't mind feeling yucky!!  Billy would not be that way at all -- even having his skin be inflamed can put him into a major funk.

Sooooooooooo you make an incredibly valuable point. 

But I surely wasn't making fun or scolding you.  Not at all -- I just think it's so much fun when we get a real glimpse into the "real person" in all of us that nobuddy ever sees.  You and I might arrive at the very same conclusion, but the way you expressed that was 100% YOU (well, something I obviously saw that you shared in common with my husband's way of phrasing a thing.)