Lowering PH trough diet

Grace is prone to UTIs and struvite crystals.  I use Eagle Pack Hollistic.  All of the varieties have a target PH of 6.2 - 6.7.  They are great about responding to you if you have a questions and the food is made in Mishawaka, IN.  

 You can also buy 400-500 mg. cranberry capsules at any drugstore and give one a day to lower PH and protect urinary tract from UTI bacteria.  Grace has not had a UTI since I've started her on this. 

The cranberry Capsules can actually work too well and cause the ph to go down too low.  When her PH comes down to normal, you should decrease the capsules eventually to the point where you only need to give them when he urinary tract is stressed. 
 

When the PH is too high that means the dog's system is too alkaline -- Billy battles this - I actually give him ascorbic acid (not just Vit C but literally in the form of ascorbic acid so it STAYS acidic).  Essentially you give as much as the dog will tolerate without causing diareha.  Start with like 100 mg and increase it day by day until you see diarreha and then back off to the last well-tolerated dose.

Vit C/ascorbic acid will rinse out of the body fast -- it leaves the body the next time they p ee. So you want to give small doses several times a day (like at least twice).

I do the acidic food thing as well -- tomato works well and they love it.  But if the ph is seriously off then it can be tough to do it JUST with food.  And the higher protein -- that can be a double-edged sword and is subject to a lot of medical opinion.  Higher protein can actually be harder on the kidneys -- so be cautious of it.  It can also be a super rich food which may or may not be well tolerated. 

You also want to watch because certain foods -- like peas for instance.  That 'sounds like' a veggie but it's mostly protein.  So you can seriously change the protein balance with some of these things. 

I'm not saying not to -- I'm just saying be cautious.  And she might want to hang around someplace like http://www.monicasegal.com - Doggie Dietician .... it's the time to really bone up on your knowledge of dog nutrition.

Sorry I forgot to mention she has used the Cranberry caps for several years with good results (UTIs got way less frequent) so that's a really good idea that I will keep in mind if I ever need something with mine.

The ongoing discussion about high protein diets and their potential effects on kidneys is one of the reasons (local availibility being another) I've not switched mine from what they eat. It is just something I've seen mentionned as a possibility in this case. Orijen, as seen on their website, has a ph of 5 which, if tolerated, could help. I know that the dog eats Solid Gold (not quite sure of which formula but not the high protein one) right now.

I'll relay the regular ascorbic acid idea since this seems to be the easiest first step to take and see if it makes a difference and also the dietetician website in case more thorough changes in diet are needed.

Thank you both.

Thalie

A friend got a female GS cross that has a history of UTIs and is also epileptic (seizures have become fewer but the dog is still taking pheno).

Is this idiopathic (unknown cause) epilepsy?  If so, then when considering a new diet, please consider DogtorJ's research.  By avoiding some foods, he has eliminated seizures in a lot of dogs.

Thalie

Sorry I forgot to mention she has used the Cranberry caps for several years with good results (UTIs got way less frequent) so that's a really good idea that I will keep in mind if I ever need something with mine.

She might also want to consider D-Mannose (link).

Urinary Tract Infection (link)

Thalie

The ongoing discussion about high protein diets and their potential effects on kidneys is one of the reasons (local availibility being another) I've not switched mine from what they eat.

The research community has concluded that protein does not harm the kidneys and that protein only needs to be restricted when kidney function is seriously degraded.  Dogs will kidney disease should be on a reduced phosphorus diet.

Protein, Kidneys, and Senior Dogs (link)

Is a Low Protein Diet Necessary or Desirable? (link) - Excerpts from research articles (with links)

Dr. Lucy Pinkston, D.V.M.

There is significant evidence, however, that the daily protein requirements actually increase slightly for dogs in chronic renal failure.

Drs. Foster & Smith, Inc.

The myth that high-protein diets are harmful to kidneys probably started because, in the past, patients with kidney disease were commonly placed on low-protein (and thus low-nitrogen) diets. Now we often put them on a diet that is not necessarily very low in protein but contains protein that is more digestible so there are fewer nitrogen by-products.

Susan Thorpe-Vargas, Ph.D. and John C. Cargill, M.A., M.B.A., M.S.

Because of certain biochemical requirements, the healthy geriatric dog requires about 50 percent more protein than the young adult, and depending on the quality of the protein, it should make up 20 percent to 30 percent of the total calories ingested. . . . Until recently, protein restriction was recommended in an effort to protect renal function. Limiting protein fails to prevent urinary filtration problems . . . Indeed, newer research shows dietary protein is not detrimental to kidney function. On the contrary, protein restriction can result in impaired wound healing, diminished immune function and lowered enzyme activities and cellular turnover. Those dogs with impaired renal function do better with dietary phosphorus restriction; however, limiting this mineral is unlikely to delay the onset of renal disease or to benefit healthy geriatric dogs.

Patricia Schenck, DVM, PhD, Veterinary Nutritionist

Dietary protein restriction is appropriate in renal failure when the disease has become severe. Restriction of protein is based on the appearance of clinical signs. It has been recommended to start protein restriction when the dog's BUN (blood urea nitrogen) is greater than 80 mg/dL [28.6 mmol/L], and the serum creatinine is greater than 2.5 mg/dL [221 µmol/L]. Both BUN and serum creatinine are good indicators of kidney function. Protein is restricted in an attempt to keep the BUN below 60 mg/dL [21.4 mmol/L]. Dietary protein may need to be gradually decreased over time as renal failure progresses.

Thank you for all the info and the links, Janet.

The onset of the epilepsy has tentatively been linked to an injection of Pro-heart 6 in 2004. The epilepsy is well under control (very low levels of pheno and months going by without a seizure by now) and the reason for a possible change of food (or supplementing the diet) is to try to lower the ph, not to control the epilepsy. If I remember well, there are things that she avoids feeding to help with the epilepsy (could not tell you what exactly from the top of my head).

I will relay the D-mannose suggestion as a general supplement to try to avoid UTIs as well as share the link to the urinary tract infection article. The UTIs are not really chronic however and right now it is the ph level of the urine that has the vet suggesting changing food. 

Regarding the high-protein foods, I think she is looking into Orijen (she does not want to go the Hill's way unless absolutely necessary) and has no objection to a higher protein kibble if it can help with the ph issue.

My stance on high-protein diets is far from being written in stone. I have read a bit about them and I am tempted to try (I started supplementing with 100% meat canned food to up the protein levels a bit) but I do not have anything available locally and ordering from the internet pushes the price really high with the kind of eating machines I have. Moreover, mine do well on what I feed and so far are quite healthy so I have time to think some more about it. Thanks for the informative quotations though.

diane303

The cranberry Capsules can actually work too well and cause the ph to go down too low. 

that's actually VERY uncommon (and ONLY when the urine is too acid - which is the environment oxalate crystals can occur in) -- the actual amount of acid in cranberry is really very minute.  Cranberry is primarily glucose -- that's why it works.  glucose, a sugar, binds to infection cells and actually makes them too 'slippery' to stick to the urinary tract walls.  And the acceptable range between acid/alkalyne is pretty wide actually -- however, some dogs are VERY prone, genetically, to forming crystals.  It's like they are hardwired for it -- some kinds of crystals more than others. 

I can't emphasize enough here -- TALK TO YOUR VET.  Because some crystals are found in acidic urine and some are found in alkaline urine.  But you won't know IF your dog is prone to crystals or which it is unless you talk to the vet.  Struvite crystals are found in alkaline urine.  Calcium oxalate crystals are found in acidic urine. It is oxalate crystals that tend to be VERY genetic in nature. 

So if your dog has alkaline urine the amount of acid in cranberry is almost negligible - it's not going to 'solve' the alkaline problem.  But if your dog's problem is the far far more rare oxalate crystal, THEN you need to be a bit careful of cranberry because you really don't want to acidify the urine any more than it already is (which is already too much). 

In that case, I'd use d-mannose which isn't as acid.  It's a supplement that is a different type of glucose.

Talk to your vet -- cranberry is something that is so widely used (by humans too) that most vets are very ok with it, particularly to help prevent an infection.

But longer term you will develop a real feel for your dog.  I've got one dog MEGA prone to utis, and two others (both females) who sure can get them.  Billy gets' more cranberry than the other two -- the older peke gets it twice a day tho, but I only give it to Luna once a day. 

But I actually have their main drinking bowl in the bathroom off the living room SIMPLY because I can 'hear' anyone drinking.  I use a big old Anchor Hocking pyrex type bowl so it's clear but has markings on it so I can keep track of who is drinking *now* and how much is being drunk in a day so I know when consumption goes up/down to watch for someone having a problem.

You don't ALWAYS get crystals with a UTI.  But when diagnosing a uti, it's important to let the vet do a urinalysis to find out IF there is an acid/alkaline problem OR if there are crystals present.  THAT is a big deal.

that's actually VERY uncommon (and ONLY when the urine is too acid - which is the environment oxalate crystals can occur in) -- the actual amount of acid in cranberry is really very minute.  Cranberry is primarily glucose -- that's why it works.  glucose, a sugar, binds to infection cells and actually makes them too 'slippery' to stick to the urinary tract walls.  And the acceptable range between acid/alkalyne is pretty wide actually -- however, some dogs are VERY prone, genetically, to forming crystals.  It's like they are hardwired for it -- some kinds of crystals more than others. 

I can't emphasize enough here -- TALK TO YOUR VET.  Because some crystals are found in acidic urine and some are found in alkaline urine.  But you won't know IF your dog is prone to crystals or which it is unless you talk to the vet.  Struvite crystals are found in alkaline urine.  Calcium oxalate crystals are found in acidic urine. It is oxalate crystals that tend to be VERY genetic in nature. 

Thanks Callie.  UTIs can cause a catch 22 situation with alkalinity and struvite crystals.  So far, Grace is doing well on the food, cranberry capsule and lots of water routine.  I'm glad to hear that I'm not throwing her PH off by giving her too much of a good thing.  There are also formulations that include Vitamine C and Ester C with the cranberry.

You do get a feel for  your dog's condition after awhile, when we have left her and Trudy for more than, say, 6 hours during the day without a potty break, I make sure that she gets her capsule with her food in the evening with lots of water.  Trudy has never had a UTI! 

the struvite crystals are by far the easier of the two.  Oxalate is SO genetic and it's tough to get it to swing back from acid.  But struvite is usually easier to maintain once  you get rid of them. 

You might try keeping d-mannose on hand -- it's incredible stuff. 

http://b-naturals.com/Dec2002.php

Acidic foods include chicken, beef, eggs, fish, pork, cottage cheese, yogurt, rice (brown and white), beans, nuts and all seafood.

Here is site on acid-forming foods and alkaline-forming foods:  
http://www.herbtime.com/InformationPages/FoodsforAlkalineAcid.htm

One bit of advice that's a little different is to make sure to keep the dog very clean in that area.  The last time Willow had an infection the emergency vet told me since her confirmation is not exactly right in that area that any dirt that she gets into can cause problems. 

I use the Cottonelle bathroom wipes for people on her.  I was using the doggie wipes but they get expensive.  You really will be surprised how dirty they can be.  At first I was thinking no wonder she's having infections. 

willowchow

One bit of advice that's a little different is to make sure to keep the dog very clean in that area.  The last time Willow had an infection the emergency vet told me since her conformation is not exactly right in that area that any dirt that she gets into can cause problems. 

I think that this is Grace's problem as well.  When we adopted her, she was wide open from having puppies.  She is still pretty evident down there and to make matters worse, when she runs outside during a messy day, she gallops hard and splatters dirty water or mud right into that area.   

Trudy was spayed at 7 months and is all small and tucked in down there.  She's lighter on her feet and stays cleaner underneath in general.  She has never had a UTI.