Why NOT neuter?

ORIGINAL: ColleenC

Bitches refuse to mate at first.  They will snap and even be aggressive to advancing males.  Towards the end of their cycle, they will stand.  But, they will NOT stand before they are ready. 
And, an intact male around a female in heat is a very ugly thing!  Colton was a monster!  He is fairly well trained and listens quite well, but during the first time he was around Rose while she was in heat, he forgot everything!  There was no listening at all.  He wouldn't eat anything, not even meat!  He would take maybe 2-3 bites of food and thats it.  This last time, he went for a visit at my mentors house while she was in heat. 

 
Not my experience with Drizzle.  Can't imply all dogs.

I think one thing we CAN all agree on is that every dog is different.  However, I would be wary, personally, of ascribing the lack of such a basic instinct as procreation to my dog's willingness to please me.  My dog DOES want to please me, but I would no more expect him to be sexually abstinent of his own free will to make me happy, than I would for him to eat less just so my dog food bills were lower. 

Kate

ORIGINAL: DPU

It is not an assumption, it is a fact that Drizzle loves me and attempts to please me at every turn.  I have stated my obversation of Drizzle when she is in season and I see nothing physical or mentally wrong with her behavior. 

I just finished taking a disturbances of reproduction class, and one of the reasons for doing AI in bitches is because a female will not accept the male. There are dominant bitches out there that will not submit to just any male, they can be really picky. So it may not be that the dog is trying to please you, but that she's a dominant sort. She could also have had a bad experience with a male dog during a heat, and therefore won't allow one near her during heat now.

This doesn't mean she won't find a suitable male in the future, and I hope you find other reasons to get her spayed in the future. I'd hate to see such an obviously well loved and eager to please dog die of something as easily preventable as pyometra.

When you look at wild canids, you notice that not every single one of them breeds and the ones that don't aren't necessarily frustrated sex mad maniacs.  Why is that? Is it necessarily true of every single one of our own pets - that to keep them intact leaves them frustrated and unfulfilled?  My brothers dog was intact his whole life and never once roamed or went mad trying to get at a bitch in heat. 

I know in Sweden it used to be illegal to neuter dogs (unless there was a medical reason). And I know for a fact they don't have the same problems with unwanted pets at all! Even now they have a very low rate of fixed pets.

I haven't neutered my dog because he doesn't mark much, and I was originally planing to breed him, because he is fearful at times - I'm afraid that would make *that* worse. In English Cockers the rate of testicular cancer is VERY low, and even then, the possibility that it will metastasize is low. I am not a vet though!

What's more interesting to me is how the results of studies defer! You can surely justify anything these days it seams, if you find the right study.


I don't know if I will do it all. I am thinking about it. I am getting dirty looks when I go to the vet

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

When you look at wild canids, you notice that not every single one of them breeds and the ones that don't aren't necessarily frustrated sex mad maniacs.  Why is that? Is it necessarily true of every single one of our own pets - that to keep them intact leaves them frustrated and unfulfilled?  My brothers dog was intact his whole life and never once roamed or went mad trying to get at a bitch in heat. 

 
I don't disagree with any of that.  I think animals can have lower sex drives than others of their kind just like humans can.  Heck, more than one species of animal is homosexual exept in breeding seasons (some kind of whale, and at least one kind of monkey).  Humans do not have exclusive license on differing sexual proclivities. I just don't think that lack of sex drive can be attributed to anything as human as the desire to please another.
 
Kate

I'm agreeing with you there Benedict.... and I'm also thinking it's relevant when deciding in each individual case whether neutering is necessary. 
 
In males, sex drive is usually linked to testosterone.  Testosterone fluctuates according to successes and failures.  If the dog "competes" over resources and keeps winning, or if his owners give him too much freedom and free access to all resources, it follows that his sex drive is likely to be higher than, say, for example,  that of a dog whose owners employ NILIF.... art of this is fact and part of it is just the meanderings of my own mind you understand....  What are other people's thoughts/experiences with this?

Just curious, can you bring your dog anywhere with you in the UK whether they are fixed or not? I live in the boonies, but by me the liabilty it too high so your unfixed dogs are not allowed in doggie daycare's, most obediences classes after they are 6 months old or dog parks. I don't know it's sure easier to train when you can have your dog out in society.

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67

I just finished taking a disturbances of reproduction class, and one of the reasons for doing AI in bitches is because a female will not accept the male. There are dominant bitches out there that will not submit to just any male, they can be really picky. So it may not be that the dog is trying to please you, but that she's a dominant sort. She could also have had a bad experience with a male dog during a heat, and therefore won't allow one near her during heat now.

This doesn't mean she won't find a suitable male in the future, and I hope you find other reasons to get her spayed in the future. I'd hate to see such an obviously well loved and eager to please dog die of something as easily preventable as pyometra.

 
Drizzle is a Great Dane and 8 years old.  According to the breed description she is nearing the end of her life.  She is in perfect health and I want her to be with me for many years to come.  I have no intentions of mating Drizzle now nor has she ever has had pups.  I did not equate Drizzle desire to please me with her not allowing any dog to mount her during season.  Her not allowing other dogs to mount her is her choice and it so happens pleases me.  It may be a dominance thing or it may be something she does not want to do.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Or you could look at it this way:  I can think of no reason why a perfectly healthy, well balanced, well behaved dog who has responsible owners with good husbandry practices would need to be neutered (unless possibly he was living with an entire bitch). 

Because even the best dog owners make mistakes.  Mistakes that can lead to a dog getting into a fight with another male (balenced or not, many intact males will have it out with other intact males if challenged), can lead to the dog wandering off and getting badly injured or worse, or can cause a litter of pups.

Sally is fixed, Jack will be, but like Benidict I have a lab and am concerned about getting him done too early.

There aren't any dog day cares that I know of here so I couldn't comment on their neutering policy.  Theres no law that says you must neuter your dog.  Many good breeders try to draw up a contract to encompass this but it's not very enforceable -  personally know people who've signed such a contract, breached it and got away with it.  It's against the law for any dog to be "at large in a public place" regardless of his breed or whether s/he is neutered or not.  A dog doesn;t have to bite someone to be considered dangerous and included under the DDA, there only need be "a reasonable fear of being bitten".  (That doesn;t apply to dogs who are dog aggressive.)

Unless the dog will be a show dog, I see no reason to keep a dog intact.
 
There are health risks, wandering risks, behavioral differences. If that makes any sense..
 
Intact dogs in *MOST* cases that I've seen are more dominant, have a tendancy to wander, and mark their territory even in the house.
 
My motto: "Better safe than sorry" []

From Chuffy's other post:

My first dog was a dog aggressive intact male. Castration made him worse.

I have to say, I'd be seriously, seriously bummed if my dog would get aggressive or more fearful after the surgery. I could talk to a behaviorist before going for it, but I really don't think I am going to hear anything new than what I've already read on their web sites- "Do neuter."

There is a shortage of professionals whose opinions I trust, that includes vets.

Jack had his rabies shot done at an early age - 4-5 months, I can't remember now-I just followed an appointment that was scheduled *automatically* by the system. Later, I stumbled upon a website that stated that early rabies shots have been linked to aggression in dogs. I can't remember all this now, but me and my OH wen to the vet, asked him about it. The vet said he hasn't heard anything about aggression=early rabies link, but he ensured us, that he would talk to the company who created the vaccine. Surly the company said it was OK-they are the sellers!

I'd like to hear a good behaviorist talk about it who is also a vet

Sorry for the dbl post - mistyped the html tag

ORIGINAL: DPU
It is not an assumption, it is a fact that Drizzle loves me and attempts to please me at every turn.  I have stated my obversation of Drizzle when she is in season and I see nothing physical or mentally wrong with her behavior. 

I just finished taking a disturbances of reproduction class, and one of the reasons for doing AI in bitches is because a female will not accept the male. There are dominant bitches out there that will not submit to just any male, they can be really picky. So it may not be that the dog is trying to please you, but that she's a dominant sort. She could also have had a bad experience with a male dog during a heat, and therefore won't allow one near her during heat now.

This doesn't mean she won't find a suitable male in the future, and I hope you find other reasons to get her spayed in the future. I'd hate to see such an obviously well loved and eager to please dog die of something as easily preventable as pyometra.

Thank you for posting the scientific perspective.  Whatever anyone's experience with having a dog that likes to please them, I assure you that if an intact bitch meets up with an intact male while she is in season, and no breeding takes place, there is a reason other than she is afraid her owner doesn't want puppies right now. [:'(] 
It's pretty irresponsible to keep pets intact if they are not destined for show or a responsible breeding  program, since only one miscalculation can result in 10+ puppies being added to the already overcrowded situation.  And, just because you find homes for them all doesn't mean that some unlucky pup somewhere close by you won't miss out on a home due to your irresponsibility. 
There is always a first time for your dog to decide to accept a male, and you cannot, no matter how good you are at recognizing the signs, always predict exactly when she is or is not fertile.  So, if your dog has no medical reason why she cannot be spayed, why would you not?  I, frankly, am surprised that anyone involved in rescue would not realize the importance of this.





Chuffy, to answer you about the day cares, here in the US, they make their own rules.  Most responsible day cares prevent intact dogs from playing if they are over the age of six months, or they make appropriate arrangements for them to be placed in compatible groups with neutered or spayed animals, so that no intact canines come together after the age of puberty.  After all, no one wants to send their bitch to day care and have her come home with puppies from who knows whose intact male.