Question for allergy dog owners

Gee, this is interesting because now that I think about it,,Ollie WAS itchy,,,very itchy at times. But to think about it, I can't remember if he was itchy at the time that his skin was broken out, when they said he had a staph infection or when he wouldn't eat. I know he was extremely itchy when he was outside in the summer,,but I can't for the life of me remember the times of the month that he was on antibiotics and prednisone. 
But all in all, I do believe that I read in several places that allergies are caused by a weakened immune system, and we feel that Ollie had a weakened immune system caused by vaccinations.
Here is what Linda Arndt has to say on her website:
you need to understand there is one cause for allergic reactions and that is a problem with an immune system. But there are many triggers for an "allergic type" reaction, some include: Genetic predisposition for Inhalant Atopic Dermatitis, Contact Dermatitis, Vaccines reactions (Purdue Study- Vaccine Mediated Responses), Candida Albicans (see [linkSystemic>http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/systemic_yeast_infections_candida_albicans.htm]Systemic Yeast Infections[/link]), Flea bite or Insect bite Determatitis, Thyroid and/or Hormones and in rare cases, food allergies.

Ben has a screwed-up immune system - I've known that from day one, as he came to me with mild demodex mange - a sign of a weak immune system.  His allergies, thyroid problems, weak immunity, even good days and bad days working sheep, all interrelate - and I know now after these many years, that it's best to maintain everything together to prevent problems popping out somewhere else. 

For instance, even though his food sensitivities may be a small part of the overall picture, avoiding problem foods and giving him the optimimum nutrition that I can, helps reduce his suceptibility to infectious disease.  I can clean house carefully, keep him at home to reduce stress, keep him clean, and feed him only food grown on the farm or friend's farms - to help him get through hayfever season.

Ben may itch because his thyroid is low, or because he's having a breakout of yeast infection problems, or because he got into something that he's sensitive to, or because the inhalent allergens are a little high, or he may be just a bit "off" on all these fronts.  I've learned now just to react, and not try to overthink it unless it goes on for a while or gets worse.  I try not to second guess myself too much or I'd go crazy.  I don't beat myself over the head if something new doesn't work that great.  The next thing I'm going to look into is having a holistic vet oversee his vaccination schedule.

I think I'm going to end up at the holistic vet's office very soon.  Now that they don't feel allergy testing is in order OR using the cyclosporine (which I was most hesitant about), there's nothing more they can do for me other than continue to throw antibiotics at each infection.  They want to add Clavomax now, stop the Doxycline, and finish the Simplicef.  I'm to double the echinacea...and hope for the best.  I'm using tea tree oil on her tummy and praying everytime I check that it hasn't gotten much worse. I guess I should be glad they're cautious and using info like "well, we did a short round of pred in March and it had little affect, so we don't think cyclosporine will do much either". 
 
Becca I'm doing most of what you're doing.  I'm cleaning more frequently, got the thyroids meds straightened out, she's got a stress-free lab's life,  changed to NB Duck & Potato, did a 12 week elimination diet - which showed no changes.  She's only had 3 year vaccines, so although that certainly could be part of the problem, I'm thankful that it hadn't been yearly and she's not due for 2 more years.  Anyway, I don't see anything left to pursue but the holistic route at this point.

Gee Cathy; I'm so sorry that the Simplicef, which seemed to be helping for a while, isn't helping now; it sounds like that sore on her tummy you mentioned a few weeks ago is getting worse too. As you know, Jessie's allergies were confirmed through skin and blood tests. The reason we first suspected something was wrong was because she was itching; she would rub against the furniture and scratch her ears and sides and chew on her legs. She had skin infections as you know, on her stomach, her muzzle, and especially her feet. Those didn't happen for a while; the itching came first. I've said this before but allergies change the skin's ph and allow bacteria and yeast to cause infections easier than a dog who has skin with a normal ph. Are there any blood tests they can do for an auto immune disease; I know they've biopsied her feet for lupus and pemphigus. I'll ray that Sassy doesn't get worse and that you find the answer soon; sending you a Big Hug.

That's really, really frustrating.  Has she been to a dermatologist?  Most of the time specialists are well worth the money because they can look at the symptoms the skin is presenting and narrow it down based on what kind of reaction is there (including doing a biopsy).  I'm all into dermatologists since the time one literally saved my husband's life - he was having a reaction to ibuprofen, which they figured out by taking a biopsy (brrrr) and looking at the how the reaction presented through all the layers of his skin.

If she has been to a specialist already, a holistic vet might be in order next.  I'm not totally into the mumbo-jumbo but there's definite value to looking at the whole dog rather than putting out fires.

One other thing, sometimes when you are bringing a dog into the vet a lot, you'll run into something that you need to dispel - many good vets will start to hesitate about suggesting this or that course of treatment, because they don't want to seem like they are grubbing for money at your dog's expense, or put you in a situation where you feel like you are having to choose between your pocketbook and your pet's comfort. 

It's simple to get past this, just look your vet in the eye the next time you are in there and say, "My dog is suffering and I can't stand to see it - I will do ANYTHING to make it better.  I will stand here and I'm not going home until we have a definite plan of action.  Let's talk about bringing in specialists and the vet school, and I'm going to consult a holistic vet too.  I want you to coordinate all this.  Let's put it on paper so we both remember what we discussed.  I'll keep a copy and you put a copy in his file."

Obviously you need to be able to trust your vet to say this since you are essentially saying "Money is no object."  But I'd trust 80% of vets in this situation.

Best wishes for answers real soon, and Sassy's improvement!

Thanks Janice - We still do think the Simplicef has helped and we've kept her on it.  Her feet and elbows look fantastic.  Almost all healed.  The sore under her chin is still bad and there are a few other spots around her nose.  The tummy is the part that's getting worse though.  I feel like a nutcase lately.  I told the vet that she had been scratching her muzzle a LOT lately but we assumed that was because of the sores.  Maybe that is just allergies in general though.  I asked my husband last night "do you think she's real itchy?" and he said "no".  I don't know though.  Maybe I could send her home with one of the vets and they could observe her [].
 
They felt like the biopsy ruled out some of the common immune-mediated diseases.  The customn blood panel they ran this week also looked for some indicators and results were good.  I'd requested it because of Sophia's recommendations for the Endocrine Immune test.  They said this was a first step and nothing on it showed they should look further BUT that doesn't mean that they can't or it wouldn't show a problem.  Just that the results, like cholesterol and a couple of other things, looked normal.  That's when I said "well, then what do you suggest we do next?"  She reviewed the entire file on Sassy last night and then consulted with the other derm vet and the best they had to offer was adding Clavamox and leaning away from trying cyclosporine.
 
Just a short rant k? - I'm tired!  I don't know how Callie does it.  I feel worried a LOT, I have bottles of tea tree solution, black tea, Malacetic Otic, drugs, supplements, I've had to scrub blood out of my rug 5-6 times week from the chin sore.  I seem to make weekly trips to the vet or pharmacy.  I think of the things I could've done with the money spent on antibiotics and tests, I wonder when we'll ever be able to take a vacation...I love this dog to pieces, but sheesh!!  I count my blessings that our other dog is sooo healthy.  Okay - pity party's over []

It's simple to get past this, just look your vet in the eye the next time you are in there and say, "My dog is suffering and I can't stand to see it - I will do ANYTHING to make it better. I will stand here and I'm not going home until we have a definite plan of action. Let's talk about bringing in specialists and the vet school, and I'm going to consult a holistic vet too. I want you to coordinate all this. Let's put it on paper so we both remember what we discussed. I'll keep a copy and you put a copy in his file."

 
Becca - you make some excellent points and I've been more direct lately, but I think I'm going to need to continue.  I told them this morning that the only option I haven't tried was the holistic route and all she'd say was "yeah, I don't know much about that area".  I find that odd, but whatever.  I only own 2 dogs and know about it.  If I made my living off of treating animals, especially as a derm vet, I'd at least know something about it.  We live in a pretty affluent area and so these vets are used to treating people with money.  Everyone drives BMWs or Cadillac Escalades.  I drive a '97 Explorer and we probably have the least expensive home for a 30 sq mi. area, but they don't know that.  I've spent over $1500 in 6 mo.'s just treating infections...but your point is well taken.  I told them yesterday that financially I can't afford to do this anymore and my hope was they'd see the need for some resolution.  UC Davis Vet School is only about 30 min's away, but I was told that I wouldn't get better treatment and would likely deal with "vets in training".  Maybe I need to check further into that though.  That's a great idea actually.  Thank you!  See how helpful you all are?

[]  Hi,  I am new on this board!!!  It looks like a wonderful caring group of people & their companions.  I wonder how many of you know of a product line called Canine Relief as it is a wonderful broad spectrum antimicrobial product line and we have had fantastic results with it.  We have hot spots clearing,  skin problems of all kinds being soothed & healed.  I emailed Cathy seperately but the product is awesome and to see the results we have seen it is neccessary to get the word out.  If anyone is interested you can see the what I am telling you about at [linkhttp://www.mysterymountain.com]www.mysterymountain.com[/link]  we have wonderful success stories  and that is what it is all about.  We love to talk about our stories so if you wish to just email us and we can talk. [8|] I had our Dobi breeder call us early this wk and just yelling at me asking me if I REALLY knew how good the wound relief was.  I just told him it was about time he realized what he really had!!!!  Well until next time do take care. I will be back on tomorrow to tell of a Pug Spaying story!!!!!   Gotta love successes for our loved ones.  [] Peggy

Hi Peggy
 
I went to that link but didn't see anything about doggie stuff? Is that the right link?
And what product are you talking about...
 
thanks
Kim

UC Davis Vet School is only about 30 min's away, but I was told that I wouldn't get better treatment and would likely deal with "vets in training". Maybe I need to check further into that though. That's a great idea actually. Thank you! See how helpful you all are?

 
Cathy, who told you that? Was it someone who had experience with taking their dog to a vet school? You will have to deal with "vets in training" but at that stage they are very close to getting their degree; you meet the student assigned to your case first and they do the initial exam and then the specialist also examines your dog and asks you questions. The student assigned to your case is under the supervision of the specialist ; in Jessie's case it was a veterinary dermatologist. The veterinary dermatologist decided which tests were needed and what the best therapy for Jessie was; not the student.   

Ollie used to get big pimple type sores under his chin,,,and they would bleed also. I would dab peroxide on them,,,and antbiotic salve sometimes. 
Darn I wish you could figure this out.

Cathy did the vet's office give you a copy the results of the Endocrine-Immune panel?
Usually the turnaround time is a week or two before the lab faxes it to the vet.

Sophia - they didn't do the actual endocrine immune panel.  They did a "customn bloodwork panel" to check for multiple things.  It was a good idea because it showed the thyroid was too high and the CBC, white blood cell count, cholesterol, etc. were all okay. What the vet said was that based on these results, there isn't a strong indication that there is an endocrine immune problem BUT she did say that it didn't rule it out either and they'd be happy to do the other test (is it a "stim" test? or ACH?).  It was at that point I said "okay, I'm financially, and otherwise frustrated, so if you were me, what would you throw money at next?" and she said they'd review the chart and call me back.  When they did, they really still didn't give me any answers.

I had a one of those knock yourself on the head moments this morning.  I have been giving Sassy benadryl (generic) 75 mg, 2 x day, for probably a year or more now.  I don't even think about it anymore, it's just a habit with the morning and night feeding.  Well...what if she is really itchy, but the benadryl is helping mask that.  I didn't give her any today and won't for awhile and maybe I'll find out that she is itchy and then we can pursue the allergy testing

Janice, I don't remember who told me about the vet school, but I went on their website Friday afternoon and they described it just as you had.  Do you, or did you, feel like they were able to do more for you than a regular derm vet.  I'm just wondering if it would be worth the time or expense to start from scratch.  Were you seeing a derm vet before going to the teaching hospital?

Cathy -- please don't feel like "about all that's left" is holistic.  The right holistic vet, particularly using the right modality is like "DAY DAWNED BRIGHT AND FRESH!!!"  It's not a 'poor alternative' -- it's the thing that can WORK.
 
Sometimes an integrated approach is what works, but darned few vets are comfortable with that (using holistic AND 'regular' vet methods). 
 
The GOOD holistic practitioner is going to give Sassy a completely **different** exam.  I can't even begin to explain how incredibly different it is.  Yeah, they'll listen to the heart -- but then they'll feel the pulse points all over the body to see how the blood flows from here to there -- they'll look at the color of the tongue, in the ears, between the toes -- all to see how the various body systems are all working together -- not just to see if something within their own specialty is wrong. 
 
Not all allergy dogs are extremely itchy -- Muffin never was and allergies would zoom into his EARS. 
 
When did  a regular vet ever make a difference as to whether it was "papules" or "pustules" on the skin -- and when did a regular vet ever differentiate that it can be a "different cause" wether the breakouts are on the "top" of the skin or under the belly or in folds, etc.??  Not just to say "that's staph" or "that's yeast" -- but that some different area of the body indicates a different problem??
 
I think you'll find this vet you have picked out to go to may shed some serious light. 
 
See the problem with "regular" vets is they rely SO much on "numbers" -- test results -- that if the "numbers" don't match a thing then it can't exist.  And it never seems to occur to them that the spleen and the skin might be 'connected' -- a regular vet tends to treat the symptoms -- not the real 'thing' that might be weak or a problem.  They think allergies have to be treated by dealing directly with allergens or forcing the immune system to 'ignore' certain things -- when in a holistic perspective (and not just 'Eastern' medicine but pretty much any good holistic practitioner who treats the "whole" being) they're going to see a direct connection between the organs and if X is a problem then maybe it's Organ A or B that's affecting Organ C or D ...
 
Kinda like me knowing Billy was feeling just a wee bit upset in his stomach (so tiny almost not even recognizably) -- rather than just trying to settle the stomach ... even my regular vet saw the wisdom in doing a senior blood panel to try to put some pieces together. 
 
In Billy's case, altho this has been this incredibly long, frustrating circuitous route - at least he IS alive.  Had I not made a major PIA out of myself and gone to the vet and asked for a blood test (which I figured I"d have to take to the holistic vet to see what SHE thot too) we wouldn't have found the anemia until he was likely crashed and beyond help. 
 
Like back when Muffin had cancer -- the western vets were focused on mast cell and killing them.  The Chinese way was to move the blood better in the body and thus eventually preventing the mast cells from being a problem.  (and he stayed cancer free the rest of his life).  Western medicine would say what does the blood have to do with cancer cells? 
 
Homeopathy sees it all as a body 'balance' thing.  Chiropractic sees things from a neural angle -- if there's a subluxation (something 'out' in the spine) then the neural pathways won't be clear and blood and body fluid won't do what it should. 
 
Each modality has it's own way of looking at it -- but the exam you'll get is SO different.  Different modalities tend to have different strengths. 
 
I hear your frustration loud and clear (boy howdy, I surely do) ... and I can only reply having seen holistic medicine work on both me and my dogs for many years.  So I have the luxury of looking back at a variety of things and seeing "hmm, that really helped THAT" --
 
I used to use Benedryl on Muffin the Intrepid jsut because it helped calm down the skin a bit when he had the demodex.  I honestly had NOT a clue he was an 'allergy' dog -- his itching was minimal and the Benedryl kept him from digging at himself so he didn't spread staph.  It wasn't later, until we were dealing with the ear ablations, that I finally learned what a MEGA MAJOR allergy boy he had *always* been.. Who the heck knew.  I just didn't want him digging that fragile, sore skin from the mites with what little itching he had ... and the Benedryl helped that.  Little did I know I was probably doing the right thing for a totally alien reason -- altho too little too late to save his ears. 
 
I don't know if all of this makes sense -- and if you aren't a person who has ever used holistic/alternative meds for yourself, then getting backed out on a limb and HAVING no alternative but to try it on the dog (simply cos nothing ELSE has worked) can feel like a poor poor substitute.
 
But it's not.  Gosh, I hope it does help Sassy -- trust me, I truly feel your pain. 
 
SOME DAY I'm gonna have a dog who has only ONE small problem, and one easily fixed -- *grin*  Mostly it's not ever that way.  But SOMEONE has those dogs -- just not you nor me, right??
 
Take care -- C