Dog Community

More on Billy -- this is getting really scarey

Posted : 6/17/2006 2:12:32 PM

Sorry folks -- I'm not on much this weekend. This is not going well at all.

We thought last week since we had a 'positive' with the Ehrlichea tests that we should reduce the pred (regular vet's call). On mid-week his hematacrit was 29 1/2 and we began to reduce the pred Thursday. Last Saturday (two days alter) Billy went to the vet again to have more blood pulled -- and it was 21 !!!!! Oops. So put the pred back up to the full dose.

By Wednesday it had slipped to 20. (This now has seen a full week on antibiotics for the tick disease -- except the pred *will* make it harder for the body to respond to the antibiotic).

Trying to keep a close eye on it -- but it seemed to me his tongue was getting more and more pale. When I came home from work last night I could tell *immediately* he was NOT well at all. Very slow, and to me (who knows him best) he had "I'm SICK" written all over him. He didn't fully eat his dinner, and I had my husband take him out front to walk him just so we could keep a close eye on "things".

He was too weak to get up the steps into the house (3 steps). We loaded him in the car and headed right for the emergency vet. Good thing -- his hematacrit was down to 10 (hear me crying?? TEN?? in two days???? he fell that far???)

Given his history (and that we have two vets working on him closely but neither was available last night) they simply transfused him. It took about 5 hours for the transfusion but he dealt well with it and we were able to bring him home about 2:30 a.m.

He feels 'better' but why this has taken such a horrific and aggressive turn I don't know.

Immune mediated? Very likely that's a big huge part of the problem, but how much more pred can he take? I will be at the vet's Monday morning soon as they open.

IF he crashes over the weekend again, we'll take him back for another transfusion.

I've already got an appointment up at Gainesville for him for Monday the 26, but we may need to get the vet to pull strings and move that up. The reason I let them set it up on the 26th was because that's when the heptologist is on rotation, but if we have to rush him in on an emergency basis they'll pull that vet in on consult anyway.

This happened SO fast last night -- when David first got home there was no real sign he was seriously ill.

There's no real diagnosis or agreement yet on what appears to be this weird bunch of symptoms and conflicting test results and tests that just aren't showing anything accurately. This has been THE most frustrating thing I've ever encountered -- in five weeks we've flip flopped between these two widely dissimilar diagnoses (immune mediated hemolyitic anemia, and Ehrlichiosis/tick disease) and maybe both and yet it could be something totally and completely different like some form of cancer.

I'm as discouraged as I've been in many years - I want to crawl into a hole and pull it in after me. That's just "me" being completely honest.

I'd truly appreciate anyone's good thots and prayers. I'm not 'around' much right now and I'm having some trouble with my connection anyway (everything is unbelieveably, incredibly slow and it takes me about 20 minutes just to get the 'box' up to answer a post -- and I think this has something to do with our home installation of a networked situation, so I can't even 'blame' my provider).

We'll pull out of this, but frankly I'm scared -- it's just so frustrating that we can't find WHAT to treat and the conflicting treatments seem to fight against each other. He's ON pred now, and we can't just yank him off it ... it's just so frustrating not to be able to get a diagnosis of some THING to treat or some THING to do.

Wah WAh WAh ... sorry. I rarely whine like this, but I'm sad. Billy's MY boy ... He's been the sunshine in my day for two years now ... and none of it has been easy. We just thot we were 'getting somewhere' with the allergies and now this, that makes allergies look like a freakin walk in the park. *sigh* (Shut up Callie -- someone hand the woman a little cheese to go with that whine!)

glenmar

Posted : 6/17/2006 4:01:50 PM

Will chedder do? Or would you prefer a nice brei? (which I can't spell). Callie if anyone deserves a whine it's you.

It goes without saying that you guys are in my thots and prayers. Sending some hugs along as well.

willowchow

Posted : 6/17/2006 4:07:01 PM

Oh my God, Callie!!! Willow and I will be praying for all of you. Please PM us if you would like to.

marty_ga

Posted : 6/17/2006 4:20:21 PM

Prayers going out for all of you...I am hitting a snag with Winnie, so I can sympathize...boy, can I! I hope you can solve this riddle!

fuzzy_dogs_mom

Posted : 6/17/2006 4:56:33 PM

So sorry to hear this, Callie. Good thoughts for you and David and Billy coming from Joyce and Max. All fingers and paws will be crossed here.

jessies_mom

Posted : 6/17/2006 5:46:48 PM

I'm so sorry about this Callie; you are in my thoughts and prayers. I guess you've done a lot of googling on IMHA; one thing I learned was that Cocker Spaniels are among the first three breeds listed that are prone to developing this disorder ;   [linkhttp://www.petplace.com/dogs/immune-mediated-hemolytic-anemia-in-dogs-imha/page1.aspx]http://www.petplace.com/dogs/immune-mediated-hemolytic-anemia-in-dogs-imha/page1.aspx[/link]

                      [linkhttp://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00152.htm]http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00152.htm[/link]

The second site says that Cocker Spaniels may account for 40% of all dogs that develop IMHA.

Parasites such as ticks can cause IMHA as well as penicillin antibiotics; [linkhttp://www.vetinfo.com/dimhanemia.html]http://www.vetinfo.com/dimhanemia.html[/link]

    " Whenever hemolytic anemia is present it is wise to carefully rule out initiating causes that might be treatable. Examples of problems that can lead to hemolytic anemia include ehrlichiosis (a blood parasite), reactions to sulfa antiseptics or penicillin antibiotics, zinc toxicosis -- which can occur due to the ingestion of pennies."

Callie, the site above also said that blood transfusions can make the condition worse and should be reserved for dogs in danger of dying from severe anemia, which I know was the case when you took Billy to the emergency vet but thought I should mention it. It also said that the spleen is removed in resistant cases since it " is a major site of red cell destruction."

The second site I listed; [linkhttp://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00152.htm]http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00152.htm[/link] discusses many different causes of IMHA including chemical and physical causes and may give you a clue as to what caused this. I'll be hoping that Billy's levels go back up again and that he continues to improve.

cakana

Posted : 6/17/2006 6:50:20 PM

Gosh Callie, so sorry you're going thru all this, especially after things seemed to be turning around. I hope that you can get some answers on Monday. Janice makes some interesting points and although we always hope our vets have considered everything, and your vets seem to be some of the best, it never hurts to gather all the info we can.

You'll be in my thoughts and prayers this weekend and yep, you deserve to whine a little now and then.

dyan

Posted : 6/17/2006 7:12:29 PM

Oh Callie,,,,we expect things to be better for you because you help us so much,,,but I'm sorry that it is not working out so well. I feel your pain, no doubt!
I wish I could say something sensible and encouraging,,,but can only offer our love and support and best wishes. I'm so sorry that you are going thru this with sweet Billy!

noblewoman

Posted : 6/17/2006 7:15:20 PM

I'm so sorry you're going through this.
Prayers for your baby are on the way......

Benedict

Posted : 6/17/2006 8:00:47 PM

I am so sorry, I'm thinking of you.

I do know incredibly well what you're going through...not with Ben, but me. I have an as yet undiagnosed, untreatable (thanks to no diagnosis) neurological illness that 7 neurologists have never seen before. I really know how absolutely frustrating it is not to have any answers and the feeling of wanting to crawl into a hole. I can only imagine how much worse it must be for you and Billy, though, since he can't verbalise what he's feeling. I am crossing everything I can that you get answers soon.

I am sending healing thoughts and vibes your way.

Kate

jennie_c_d

Posted : 6/17/2006 9:33:11 PM

Oh, Callie! I'm so sorry that Billy isn't doing well.

((((((((((((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))))))))))))) and lots of healing thoughts and prayers, from us.

loveukaykay

Posted : 6/17/2006 9:44:02 PM

Im so sorry Callie, its not easy one bit to go through what your going through... and we all here know the pain your feeling. I wish I was there for you, or that I had answers.... I pray that you along with your vets can figure this out... Im thinking of you and Billy... get some rest Callie, you deserve it.

Know that Billey is all too aware that you are doing everything you can. Big hug for you both.

tacran

Posted : 6/18/2006 12:27:47 AM

Callie, I was just thinking I'd send you a quick PM tonight since I hadn't seen you post any updates the last couple times I've checked in. I wanted to assume "No News is Good News," but I was afraid maybe something was wrong and you didn't have time and/or energy to post. I'm so sorry to hear that it was the latter reason.

I am very familiar with the hopeless feelings and discouragement when you can't get a clear answer for what is causing your baby's illness. As awful as it is to get a horrible diagnosis, at least you know what's on the horizon, if it can be helped, what you should do, etc. Not only do you have the right to WHINE all you want, and crawling into a hole is absolutely understandable, I think everyone would agree that ANY reaction you have would be justified. Flat out screaming to the heavens for an answer is just one of many I can think of.

I wish I had some good info to share. I'm afraid I don't even know what hematacrit levels indicate in my own blood work. All I can do (and WILL do) is to continue to pray for you, David and Billy, send all the good vibes I can, and ask Tonka to keep watching over Billy, especially when you guys are at work and he's at home. Hugs to all of you, and a gentle kiss on the nose for Billy.

calliecritturs

Posted : 6/18/2006 11:46:16 AM

Thanks folks -- not only is this all gosh darned draining, both my husband and I are having to work some gonzo overtime. David's in the middle of this huge project at work that he's part of the management working on it, and that kinda crescendo's mid week the last week of June. So altho it's Sunday he's at work for the WHOLE (like 8:30 - 9 tonight) day.

Given that it looks like the Gainesville trip will have to be much sooner rather than later, I'm on MY way into work to try to get my own job caught up enough so I don't ditch my boss in the middle of everything (I'm a legal secretary and being 'gone' is a huge hardship on him). But I did sleep in this morning, and David and I took a couple of hours last evening for a bit of rest and recreation (you gotta stay balanced or YOU crash).

Billy's holding his own -- in fact, he's feeling good enough to play ball (and frustrate Luna in the bargain *which I suspect is his point*) right now.

I did get a call on Friday that when we go up, not only will he be seeing the anemia vets, but Dr. Xie from the Chi Institute has told me he'll come over to see Billy too (I'm hoping that means some acupuncture too but we'll see).

Jessies_mom thanks -- and yeah, not only are cockers way up there, it's BUFFY COAT cockers that account for nearly all the cockers who DO get this!! sheesh! Talk about the genetic deck being stacked against you!

I hadn't seen in print that the transfusions could act that way but honestly it stands to reason ... because the body sees the red blood cells as "invaders" so giving the immune system "fresh meat" so to speak could send it into a frenzy. I was watching carefully all weekend for him to react that way -- but so far he's acting really good.

I've read him ALL the "Billy" stuff here (he absolutely ADORES hearing his name and knowing I"m reading something other folks have posted -- I think folks miss such an opportunity when they don't read stuff aloud to their fur friends when it has their name in it!!!).

Tracy thanks. The problem, as Jessies_mom kind of pointed out, is that the tick disease calls for antibiotics that are essentially "cillins" (pennicilln derivatives like tetracycline or doxycycline) and that can worsen it. The pred needed by the IMHA depresses the immune system so that it can't respond to the tick disease. And we can't get a clear diagnosis on either one of them -- so they continue to look further afield. I suspect it's both IMHA and ehrlichiosis and the two diseases are literally butting heads.

This isn't posted in the Spiritual Circle but what I'm gonna say is more physical than spiritual.

I also suspect strongly (and this is the 'me' that doesn't show on here much) that this is also going to come down to serious prayer and good thots. To add just a word on that, it has been seriously, medically documented how much 'prayer' aids healing. But stuff like Reiki works as well -- which ... let's just call that the "good thots" version of prayer. Studies have been done (are being done) but of course these don't get funded and 'published' that show that somehow things happen when prayers and good thots are concentrated.

Call me weird, but knowing how much "electricity" plays a part in the body (think about the fact that the brain is largely electrical and all the neural synapses in the body ARE electrically charged and the basic "cells" themselves are composed of positively and negatively charged ions (c'mon folks -- remember high school biology -- protons and neutrons).

Ok ... how many of you RIGHT NOW are sitting there with your hands on a keyboard or a mouse. What connects those with your computer -- electricity, right? What connects those to the internet -- electricity, right??

Ok ... I don't go any further than that, but it makes sense to me that when all that electrical energy is directed at a thing that something "happens". And that's just in the "physical" non-religious realm. For those of us who believe and operate in a spiritual realm that is more or less a 'given' (how much of prayer takes place with folks holding hands?).

For ME it all makes a certain amount of 'sense' (and I'm a person who needs "substance" in my faith). But it also makes a lot of sense to me why when folks post about "prayers and good thots" it has effect. I'm not trying to diminish anyone's faith, nor am I trying to talk voo doo to those who don't "believe". It just seems to help.

Not to mention the fact that as humans when we all get 'support' from other people, it eases the mental and emotional 'load' on us so we function BETTER. Give someone support and they tend to make better decisions. So that's another way it helps.

Anyway -- thanks SO MUCH. I will post as I can. I have a feeling my vet (who hopefully will be back from some deep family stuff tomorrow) will hotline us to Gainesville and that should get us the availability of more testing (like at this point I'd like an ultrasound done to make sure we don't have something truly nasty going on) AND to get a look at what the spleen looks like.

Kate and Ben -- definitely prayers and good thots going in your direction too. Any possibility of your checking with your state's best vet school? Often far cheaper than you might think -- not always the case, but frequently it is.

Loveyoukaykay -- Bailey's still on my heart and don't hesitate to phone me if you need to.

Jennie -- Billys felt THAT hug in a big way.

Nobelwoman thank you -- I don't know you well but how wonderful of you to add your voice.

Dyan, Cathy and Jessies_mom -- you guys have been SO faithful every time I've posted about this -- my heart just runs over with appreciation and all the insight and links you've provided. Thanks.

Fuzzydogsmom -- my husband loves it when someone remembers him too! Thanks *smile*

Glenda -- thanks. I know you know where I'm at.

So I'm off to work to try to get myself set up so I can do that without the world falling apart here. I'll check back in later. Callie

jessies_mom

Posted : 6/18/2006 1:34:35 PM

I'll be one of those praying that Billie makes it through this; I know you would do the same for me. I did a lot of praying a few years ago when the left side of Jessie's head swelled like half an orange was slipped under her skin and the skin on her nose turned red and had pustules; the vet didn't know what it was or what caused it. It wasn't as serious as what Billy is dealing with but I didn't know that at the time; anyway Jessie got better even though she wasn't getting the right treatment ( she should have gotten steroids). I believe in the power of prayer and will pray for Billie. It's cool that one of the vets from the chi institute will be at Gainesville to see Billy too.