Sassy problems again - pls help

Oh man Cathy, I was thinking I wanted to PM you last night to ask you how Sassy is doing,,,I hadn't read too much lately except I think I remember you saying her allergies are "kicking up" again.
First I don't remember any swollen lymph nodes with Ollie,,,but keeping in mind as much as he was here,,,he also didn't live with me. But I do know that infection causes them to swell so hopefully its part of her infection now...with her little spots on her lips etc.   
Did you ever get her tested for allergies?  I ask because you kind of reminded me of Ollie when you say that Sassy had a staph infection and it cleared up by itself.  With Ollie, he kept getting put on medicine,,such as antibiotics things I don't remember the names of. It would help clear them up, but it seemed less and less each time.  And  the time in between infections was getting shorter. THAT is when Mike said "enough is enough, Ollie is NOT getting on any of those medications again!"  And then my sister-in-law that worked in a nursing home at the time said exactly the same thing...that see sees all the time that people are getting infections, put on Prednisone,,,antibiotics and whatnot,,,, and the infections come back quicker and quicker. She felt that the medications really make their immune system even worse. Her opinion only, but she saw the same thing as was happening with Ollie.  
If they have allergies, it seems that you just have to try to stop them if you can to strengthen their immune system.  Right now is allery time so all our our dogs are probably going to be at their worst...but I think you just really need to find out what Sassy is allergic to and work from there.  Poor baby Sassy and poor you. I feel bad, I know the worry! 

BEEN THERE!! 
 
Especially with Billy ... one time last summer I totally freaked when his skin got extraordinarily bad, he got put on new stuff (I don't even remember now what it was) and I was petting him and the lymph nodoes behind the back knees were ENORMOUS.
 
Heart in throat, 25 pound weight on chest and TERRIFIED ... it tooks me days to get hold of EITHER vet and yeah, it was just the body reacting to the new meds and DOING something.
 
Do call the vet Monday, but meanwhile I'm inclined to tell you from first hand experience it's not a bad thing for the body to bring in it's own lymphatic reinforcements.  But oh man, I so understand how YOU feel!!!  This is probably a good thing, not a bad one.

Thanks for responding Dyan and Callie and Callie thanks for giving me a little comfort that it may just be the immune system finally doing it's job. I know you've got your own worries with Billy, although it seems like you're getting some positive news.   So happy for you guys.

I think the nodes feel a little smaller today, but I'm going to be watching everything on her like a hawk.  I hope to get the results of the culture tomorrow.
When Sassy's tummy cleared up (post-antibiotics) I thought "okay, that was a bad infection, not sure what caused it, but she's better" and so I dropped the allergy testing idea.  I was feeling pretty broke and just hoped we were thru with problems.  The derm vet hadn't been very enthusiastic about the testing either, nor is she now.  She agrees that these infections are triggered by an underlying allergy for sure.  However, she said we can do the allergy testing and then hope that what we "think" is a trigger, is the trigger.  She said that even if something shows up as off-the-chart on the allergy scale, it doesn't mean that IT is the thing that's causing the problem.  I didn't quite understand it all, but I can just tell that she's not convinced it's the answer.  She brought up Atopica again as maybe a more immediate (results wise) option and possibly more effective way to go.  Of course, she said that we wouldn't even consider Pred or Atopica while she has this infection.  I said "what if we try Atopica for 30 days, see how she does, and if it doesn't  help, we go straight to allergy testing?"  She said that sounded like a good plan.  Either one is pricey - probably about $250, so it's just a matter of what might get results fastest - before another serious infection develops.
I asked her about incorporating some holistic treatment into the mix and she agreed it would be a good idea and only cautioned that I don't go the holistic route and forego traditional meds, such as antibiotics.  I assured her, I'd never do that.  She said that giving Echinacea right now is probably a good idea, so I'll be picking up some of that.
Anyway - both of these infections have concerned her greatly and this time she actually said if it goes systemic, it could kill Sassy.  Very scary words.
My niece got married yesterday, so we'd driven to the coast for that.  It was one of the nicest (and most expensive) weddings I'd ever been to.  Reception was at a very posh country club, open bar, filet mignon, etc.  Anyway as soon as my niece and brother did the father & bride dance, we left to drive home.  Neither my husband or I could stop worrying about Sassy and how she was doing. 
Thanks again for the care and support you guys!

  Cathy;  Jessie has a fatty tumor in her left armpit so maybe at least one of those lumps is the same thing; I'm sure glad Callie has had experience with swollen lymph nodes with Billy.  Thank goodness the infection isn't systemic; I'll pray that it doesn't go systemic.  I'm so sorry that Sassy is having so much trouble. Allergies can be a tremendous stress on the immune system. I told you about the time when the left side of Jessie's head swelled and the skin on her nose and eyelids turned red and developed pustules from an insect bite. At the time I was treating her two rear feet for infections, she had an ear infection and her eyes were watering a lot. If it hadn't been for the other problems I don't think she would have reacted to the insect bite so badly. I really feel for you and know about the worrying and the frustration. The veterinary dermatologist we went to asked lots of questions to get an idea of the severity of the allergies and how often Jessie had symptoms. She had us try an elimimation diet to see if she had any food allergies; she improved about 25% but still had foot infections and itchy ears so it was determined that a food allergy was part of the problem but she didn't get enough relief so the dermatologist did the blood test and skin test. Based on those results she determined that immunotherapy would be a good option. It hasn't been a cure-all but most of the year Jessie doesn't even need an antihistamine; she has been taking one lately but hasn't needed antibiotics in about fifteen months; I'd say she's about 80% to 90% improved since starting immunotherapy. Your dermatologist is probably being cautious because the tests are very expensive and there is no guarantee that immunotherapy will work. I'm curious about her using the word "trigger"; dogs have an allergy threshold which means they can tolerate a certain amount of allergens before showing symptoms; when their exposure to allergens is greater than their threshold they develop ear infections, skin infections, etc. Jessie's tests showed that she was very allergic to many grasses, weeds, and trees as well as dust mites and storage mites. In order for a vaccine to be effective it can't have more than 12 allergens. Our dermatologist determined which allergens to include in the vaccine according to Jessie's history ; what time of the year she had the most problems and which allergens she had the greatest chance of being exposed to.  There is a possibility that Sassy's problems right now are related to the pollens this time of year; Jessie has needed to take a prescription antihistamine lately and I know that yellow dock is producing pollen now and is one of her worst allergens; if it wasn't for immunotherapy she would probably be in bad shape right now. Keep us posted about Sassy and let us know what the results from the culture show. I'm sending you and Sassy <>;  get better soon Sassy.

  If the vet doesn't think allergies are at the root of Sassy's problems has she mentioned other possibilities? Does she think a senior blood panel like Callie recently had done for Billie would be helpful? Is it possible that Sassy's problems could be caused by Cushings,  Addisons, or diabetes?

Thanks Janice - I do remember the many problems you had with Jessie's allergies and you and Dyan are the ones I think of all the time when I think of successful allergy testing stories.  The vet definitely thinks it's allergy related and isn't opposed to allergy testing but I think she thinks there's some iffiness to it and we wouldn't likely know for 6-8 months.  I could tell that she was leaning pretty much 50-50 to either allergy testing OR Atopica.
When they did the skin biopsy in March or so, I think they thought it would show if there was a problem like Cushings, lupus or ?...but it didn't.  I'm not sure why they haven't run a senior panel or any bloodwork for that matter.  I asked when we were going thru the belly infection, but they seemed to think the biopsy would give us what we needed.  I think I'll bring that up again though - good idea.
Hopefully I'll have more information tomorrow - at this point, no news isn't necessarily good news right?

Well THAT was weird...I wrote you a big answer and went to send it and all of a sudden it would not send....I was on as a GUEST instead of me,  this was after writing at least 5 posts,,,and it happened right in the middle of writing this one!
 
Cathy, I guess you have to follow your vets suggestions...or find another.  I just don't understand not trying to stop the allergies by giving Sassy allergen shots. I know it is not foolproof, but I just can't see keep giving her more and more medications that seem to by weakening her immune system even more. I'm not against antibiotics and all, gee, half of our problem with Ollie was worrying that he was on them so much that if he got something that was life threatening, that his body would be so used to them that it wouldn't work.    But you seem to have a plan and I hope it works,,,and soon. 
Your wedding sounds great that you went to...too bad you and your hubby were so worried that you couldn't enjoy it!  

I have a feeling what the vet means about the testing is this, in short:
 
If you find out it's something unique - like my friend did with her dog (they found out Quincy's #1 allergen was FEATHERS!!  Totally weirdo thing for a dog to be allergic to, and of course they have a feather duvet on their bed all year, feather pillows and Quincy slept with them!!  Hypoallergenic covers for all made this enormous difference right away) and something you CAN eliminate, great. 
 
But otherwise typically when you test, you find out the #1 allergen is something like the maple tree in the front yard, or cholorophyl (grass, and anything at all green) -- and you can't put the dog in a plastic bubble to live.  So at times even the big guns test where they actually expose the dog to like 2000 allergens may be helpful if you identify something you can eliminate from the dog's environment, but most of the time you just find this plethera of STUFF that is generally "life as we know it". 
 
Things like Cushings/Addisons -- those require specific tests of their own -- like the Cushings test is a whole day at the vet complete with fasting, etc.  It's not something to hope for -- the darned 'cure' is darned hard on the dog. 
 
I'm not fussing here -- (remember me, right now I'm single-handedly paying for my vet's kids college education in advance, and at least his next two trucks *sigh*).  Just trying to be practical and realistic. 
 
I forget -- have you sent thyroid tests to either Michigan or Dr. Dodds?  (I know someone I asked on here said yes and I'm tired and my brain is fried so please don't think I don't care *sigh*).  But that would be a test that could likely at least shed light on something that might begin to help you be more effective in treating the allergies.  Like I said to someone else -- balancing the thyroid doesn't 'cure' allergies at all -- it just helps get the body in balance enough so that what you DO to treat the allergies begins to have some sort of effectiveness.
 
Another thing that has helped not just Billy but *every* allergy dog I've had has been the Chinese medicine.  Acupuncture does help allergies in a big way.  but beyond that -- they see the skin problems in a different way -- not just as "allergy" but that the allergies cause internal dampness or heat (papules and/or infection) and then the Chinese herbs actually treat those side effects specifically rather than trying to make the allergies 'go away' (which won't happen -- if you are allergic to air, you are GONNA be allergic to it ... but the hope is that you can get the body to respond in a better way). 
 
I'm not saying stop going to the dermatologist, nor your regular vet.  BUT before you invest a couple of thousand in allergy testing that might be for naught ... you might consider trying the Acupuncture/Chinese medicine and see if it would help.  They just give a whole different exam and they will pick up the other potential diseases likely without a ton of fruitless tests. 
 
It's amazing to hear my regular vet and my TCVM 'holistic' vet talk about stuff and how the TCVM vet can elminate something based on observation -- or she can tell the regular vet "let's test ____ because I"m seeing this or that ..."
 
Now you aren't gonna get vets from different hemispheres theory-wise to work together instantly -- but once your regular vet understand you aren't going to stop seeing them, AND the TCVM vet understands you're going to try to keep a reality check on everything it can really give you a whole new method of treatment.
 
Just a thot anyway -- and I know you're getting pretty desperate.  [linkhttp://www.chi-institute.com]http://www.chi-institute.com[/link] -- I know there are a ton of TCVM vets in CA.

Thanks Janice - I do remember the many problems you had with Jessie's allergies and you and Dyan are the ones I think of all the time when I think of successful allergy testing stories

 
  You're welcome but I wasn't trying to remind you of Jessie's success but instead relate how  the dermatologist came to the decision that immunotherapy was a good option and how giving a dog immunity from some things they are allergic to can relieve their symptoms because it reduces their allergy load to a point below their threshold. Jessie couldn't receive immunotherapy to all the allergens she reacted to; the vaccine contained less than half of the allergens she reacted significantly to but it was enough to lower her threshold to the point where she is comfortable. Sassy  may be allergic to many things also and that could be why the dermatologist is hesitant to try immunotherapy.
  A biopsy is good for diagnosing Lupus and Pemphigus but a blood test is necessary for diabetes, Cushings and Addison's. I don't know what the symptoms of those diseases are but I know they affect the immune system. There may be other diseases as well that I'm not aware of.  Anyway, I'll be checking tomorrow to see if you've learned anything else. I hope Sassy starts feeling better; you'd think that pills as expensive as she is taking would cure about anything;  [] I hope they help her.

Callie - yep, done the thyroid panel (thru MSU) and it did help initially when we started it last Sept.  I was so optimistic that we'd found an answer to the problem, but then in late Dec., she developed the tummy infection.  Her fur is now thinned badly again and the vet agreed with me last week that she just doesn't look healthy.  You know that bad feeling when your vet looks at your dog with that really concerned look on their face?  Made me feel really worried.
Guess what??  I see a red sore (hot spot?) on Sassy's tummy again.  Is this going to be the beginning of another huge/bad tummy infection?  Fortunately, Sassy has had a lot more patience with all of this than I have [].
I've decided thru the last few days and this morning that I'm going to get Sassy back in and have them do the draw for the allergy testing.  Geesh, if it doesn't give us any useful information, at least I won't be wondering anymore.  Yeah, it's $250, but I just spent $300 and if it's like last time, either this won't be the right antibiotic when the culture comes back, OR it will be the right one, but won't be effective.  It really just makes sense to at least look at what might be the trigger, right?  Hitting myself on the head that I didn't do it on Thursday.

Cathy and Sassy..
 

  Remember she can't have steroids for a few weeks before the blood test and there may be a restriction on antihistamines too. Hopefully the sore on her stomach won't spread; since she's on an antibiotic I guess you can't give her anything else for it orally but it should be alright to put a topical on it like Genotin spray , Animax, or Bactoderm. Hang in there Cathy; you've taken care of the thyroid problem and you know she doesn't have Lupus or Pemphigus; unless your vet has an idea of what else could be causing this an allergy blood test seems like a good idea. What did she say about the lumps?
    Maybe you and the vet need to take a look back over Sassy's history for the last year or so; what problems she had and what time of year she had them; and what treatments worked and what didn't work for some clues as to what the underlying cause may be. I second Dyan's angels.

Awww Dyan -  thank you and you too, Janice! 

On a funny, but frustrating, note.  The vet sent us home with a solution (Novalsan) to soak Sassy's feet in for 5 -10 min's daily.  So, I know her and getting her to actually get into the bathtub ain't gonna happen.  She's 70 lbs and there's no way I can lift her.  So I mixed it up in a big dishpan yesterday and tried to do it in the garage.  Front feet first.  It was like moving a mountain but I got her to stand and fed her treats the whole time.  Then came the back feet.  I felt like I was trying to move a mule.  It would've been hysterical to watch, but I wasn't amused.  I managed to do it, but I know Sassy, and she'd be thinking "fool me once, shame on you..fool me twice...."  So today I thought I'd better just try to do it in the house so she can't run and hide under something.  This time I could only get her to stand for the front feet, but everytime I got one back foot in the other came out until I had water everywhere!!  My husband will be home tomorrow, so I'll let him give it a try and hopefully he'll have better luck.  I know that other's are able to do these amazing things by using treats, but Sassy has never been super food-motivated and if she even senses you're calling her cause you want to do something like mess with her feet or put medicine on her, she's not having any part of it, even if you've got fresh meat [].

Oh no,,,,,,,,,,,,,shes not food motivated...THATS a toughie!
Best of luck to DH!  LOL  LOL