formerly Darby's Mom... the thyroid & allergy Doodle

Hi Amy,
Are you sure it's not thyroxine?  If so, that's what I have Sassy on and also at the .8mg 2 x per day.  When she started I noticed a definite difference in her disposition.  She went from being pretty lethargic to being super perky.  I'd always commented to my husband that she didn't wag her tail when I talked to her (our other dog wiggles all over).  Now that she's on the meds, she's a super tail wagger and much happier.  She also went from 98 lbs in Sept to 78 in Jan, and we didn't change a thing with her diet.
 
Regarding the allergy shots.  Can you tell me a little about what test they used and anything else?  I'm leaning heavily in that direction now too.

Hi Cathy... the meds say Thyrosyn, I've only had them for a few hours today and still doing my end of the research, I believe it's the trade name for Levothyroxine.
As far as the allergy shots... this is how we ended up with the thyroid meds.
Darby was a rehome that I took in September 2003.  She's always been chunky, and sorta distant.  She's had chronic ear infections etc. I started taking my other dog that has kidney disease to a different vet. I finally took Darby in, and the vet agreed, she's text book allergy. I did an elimination diet, but had her on 'allergy' foods all the while, without relief.  Her main symptoms were chronic ear infection, extroidinary amount of eye exudate, to the point it looks like pudding in the corner of her eyes, chewing paws, and licking her private areas.  I did the elimiation diet and then I added green beans for weight loss after 3 weeks. Nothing changed.  Matter of fact, in 16 weeks she lost only a few ounces.  So that spurred the thyroid panel, shes low...BUT first we had to get the allergies under control.  She's not allergic to much, but the main triggers are DUST and Storage mites. Numbers on the test for allergens is considered 100+ is an allergy.  Her numbers for those were in the thousands.  So, in January we started immunotherapy shots and have now been able to distance the shots, we're at 12-14 days at full concentration. She's not chewing much, her eyes are better (oh I should mention that her eye membranes were flaming cherry red before the shot) not chewing much, and her ears are staying clean.  I think she's feeling better.
So now we start the thryoid, hoping to get some energy in her, and some weight off of her.
I had a good talk with the vet and the thyroid and allergies can go hand in hand.

What were the first signs the meds were working, do you remember?
What should I look for?

Amy

Hi, I remember Darby...she is so cute! Glad she is doing better with her shots! I know our Ollie sure did!

Honestly, the signs were amazing and caught me by surprise.  Sassy, as I mentioned, had been quite lethargic.   I can remember watching her as she laid outside and a butterfly flew within inches of her nose and she barely moved.  When she started the meds, it was on only the second day, that I noticed her level of alertness was a 10 on a scale of 1-10.  Her ears were perking up at every tiny sound, her head was swinging around to see things.  It was amazing, but I thought she seemed hyper and wouldn't really settle down.  I insisted on retesting at the 3 week mark, and she came back as low-normal, so her levels were fine.  The other thing we noticed during this first few weeks was a ravenous appetite and thirst.  That has since settled down though.  I think she acts and looks like a healthy 6 y.o. lab these days and I'm very happy we found out and were able to treat it.

There is a bunch (like MANY MANY) different thyroid meds.  My Billy sounds much like your dog -- MAJOR mega allergies last year -- I use both a holistic vet (who uses Chinese herbals and acupuncture) AND my regular vet -- Billy got antihistamine, a bunch of different herbals to help control the wild skin problems that result from the allergies,  I was bathing him EVERY day, and genrally just breaking my life into bits to try to keep this dog's skin whole.  To NO avail.
 
He was on antibiotics so many time I can't track them all (and I'm anal about such stuff) and even pred several times to get the inflammation down to a liveable level.  NOTHING was working ... not at all.
 
I had him on half what Luna eats -- and both weighed around 30 pounds. Billy is taller than she is, she is longer than he is.  But the old MOstlie Sheltie ate more than Billy got and he could NOT get off any weight.  I was virtually starving him.
 
Finally late last summer I suggested we get his thryoid tested AGAIN (it had been done like 3 times in a year -- 'low end of normal' but not "low") but this time send it to either Dr. Dodds or Michigan STate (who uses her protocols and she built their lab).
 
YEP, he came back a definite LOW.  Not super low -- but 'low' -- so Dr. D (the holistic vet) asked me to use Armour Thyroid (which is porcine thyroid - not a 'synthetic' at all).  She says she's gotten super results and better skin results with it.  My regular vet didn't care. 
 
I didn't notice ahuge difference -- other than just a bit less lethargic.  But more 'normal' acting -=- like  when he first came here.
 
It took me a month to even begin to see any results on the skin -- and in fact, because it was a time of year when the allergies are just violent in Florida the skin got a bit worse and he had to go on antibiotics.
 
BUT once the skin cleared up -- it STAYED pretty clear.  Way better than it had been BUT ... it was also "winter" and I suspected most of the 'change' was weather -- NOT thyroid **yet**.  I didn't bump up the thyroid meds yet
 
It's January and NOW allergy season begins in Florida and a year ago it was the start of a MAJOR nightmare - skin-wise.  We also had some major stress here because we lost Foxy the end of February . 
 
Somewhere at the end of January since it had been over 4 months and I asked to have him retested -- he actually still showed 'low' - but borderline.  We came to a difference of opinion between the holistic and regular vets.  The regular vet said "since he's being supplemented I'd expect it to be mid-range normal!"  The holstic vet felt it was within 'range' so leave it alone.  I did for a while ...
 
Right about then things got difficult here -- Billy had some skin issues about the time Foxy died and honestly it was mostly because his skin reacted to allergies and I didn't start responding to it herbally AT ALL til after we lost Fox.  (We'd had a few weeks of it being really difficult here) 
 
I had to have Billy on an herbal 'antibiotic' (nothing as stiff as pharmaceutical antibiotic) and one shot of dex (a minor steriod injection -- only intended to bring his skin back to level short term -- NOTHING like what he'd had in the past).
 
BUT during this time I decided it was time to bump up the thyroid (I'd only been on the fence for a few weeks trying to get the whole vet agreement thing settled AND dealing with Foxy being sick.).
 
 So I compromised with the two vets and I bumped him to a 1 1/4 pills (the Armour Thyroid are 2 gr pills) so this meant he was getting 2 1/2 grains - 1/4 of a pill isn't a huge increase.So I compromised with the two vets and I bumped him to a 1 1/4 pills (the Armour Thyroid are 2 gr pills) so this meant he was getting 2 1/2 grains - 1/4 of a pill isn't a huge increase.
 
AHA -- I see a little more energy -- But even better, the skin holds!!
It worked and his skin has 'held' SINCE and we're having the worst allergy year  Florida has ever seen.
 
Now ... right now is a super challenge because the pollen is SO wicked here at present -- but gosh ... I'm thrilled.  Rather than use the herbals so heavily, I'm using homeopathics on Billy (because frankly they have almost zero side effects and I want to phase out the Benedryl if at all possible to be kinder to the kidneys).  Controlling allergies with such minimal stuff compared with last year??
 
HEAVEN!!
 
7 months have brought such HUGE changes.  And it's the thyroid meds doing it. 
 
I'm totally pleased with the Armour thyroid.  Billy's coat is soft and shiney.  HE feels better.  When his skin is so bad, it affects him a great deal emotionally. 
 
My point in all this is DON'T expect fast change.  Your dog is an "allergy dog" -- that is NOT going to change.  However ... the low thyroid sets the body up not to deal with the allergies well. 
 
Don't think because it's a pill that it will act fast.  It takes TIME for the body to break down skin-wise because of allergies.  Allergies are an immune problem -- and bringing the thyroid into a level state only then helps the body react more normally TO allergens and to what other things are going on. 
 
It's sort of like having a personal financial emergency when you are out of work and way in debt, and THEN you get a job.  Not a zillion dollar inheritance ... just a JOB.
 
Are you immediately going to recover financially?  No.  But slowly since you are now working and CAN pay all the 'normal debts' you manage your finances so you have a little extra to pay off the past debt.  It goes away slowly and you recover ... slowly.
 
It takes a whle having the thyroid 'level' for the body to regain it's health simply because the thryoid isn't a ":cause" -- it's jsut something that will exacerbate an already existing problem.
 
So honestly don't even LOOK for a difference for 2-3 months.  And then keep in mind whatever season it is.  After 6-8 months you will be able to evaluate things better.
 
Don't forget to have the blood tested eriodically.  That's REALLY important.
 
And don't forget to watch for signs of high blood pressure.  If the dog flip flops because the dose is too high -- watch for agitation or the dog just not being 'settled'.  (there is a difference between more energy and a dog that is 'agitated' and unable to settle).  If your dog looks at all 'bug eyed' -- CALL THE VET.  You do not want high blood pressure (which results from thyroid being too high).  And any med can cause that over-reaction.  I hope you don't see it, but it's one of those symptoms that can be really super hard to pin down if you aren't WATCHING for it.
 
Hope that helps. 
 
I didn't go the shots route -- I have a basic problem with the concept -- the shots basically "desensitize" the dog to the allergen -- in essence it dampens the immune system in that area and I feel that's too risky.  So we wanted to do it without.  I don't hold it against anyone who does it -- but that's my thinking on why I didn't do it for Billy. 
 
 
 

Hi "Darby's Mom"; It's great to have you back, and I'm glad the shots are going well and Darby's responding to them. []

I didn't go the shots route -- I have a basic problem with the concept -- the shots basically "desensitize" the dog to the allergen -- in essence it dampens the immune system in that area and I feel that's too risky. So we wanted to do it without. I don't hold it against anyone who does it -- but that's my thinking on why I didn't do it for Billy.

 
  I hope you're wrong about the shots making the immune system more vulnerable; they're actually not sure exactly why the shots work. If I had been a member of idog about 16 months ago it may have made a difference in my decision to try immunotherapy for Jessie; honestly, you know so much about home treatments you could write a book. If I had access to the advice on this forum, especially your advice,  it may have been enough to alleviate her symptoms. I did read "The Art of Natural Healing" and "The Allergy Solution for Dogs" and try some of the nutritional and topical therapies in those books. I became familiar with the local health food stores as I looked for some of the homeopathic remedies that were suggested. Without a local holistic vet to consult I was limited in what to try safely as you have to be careful of the dosage when using herbs. Fortunately we live close enough to a good veterinary teaching hospital to take Jessie there and she has done very well on the allergy vaccine that the derm vet prescribed. I would not stop giving the shots now and try home treatments because she is doing well and if the home treatments didn't work she would have to start at the beginning again on her shots. However,  when people come to this forum and ask for help in dealing with an allergic dog I'm going to suggest that they try homeopathic treatments first before they try desentization.

*Some* (as in NOT all, as in more than a few, less than 'most' probably) holistic vets (and a regular vet isn't ever going to admit it even if they maybe *thought* it) think that encouraging the immune system to be "less sensitive" is among the things that may pave the way to cancer.
 
Specifically, the authority who made the most sense to me was Dr. Martin Golstein "The Nature of Animal Healing" (not to be confused with Pitcairn's book).  Dr. Goldstein is the vet at Smith Ridge Animal Hospital on Long Island -- and his practice is almost all cancer and allergies.  His specialty is homeopathics (ie, not herbals, but the specific modality of homeopathy).  One of his many "things that make you go hmmmmmmmm" is his concern that HE has seen a strong correllation between dogs who take allergy shots as dogs that generally seem more prone to cancer.
 
He's the first to say that's not any kind of 'fact' - just merely him seeing this over and over.  Allergies ARE an "immune thing".  Allergy and immunity are closely tied in the body.  Go the next step with what he's saying to the fact that cancer is the "ultimate betrayal of the body by the immune system".  That if the immune system (jn dog or human or any animal) were working as it SHOULD, that the moment the first cell replicated wrongly (and cancer is where the body allows cells to replicate abnormally) the body ought to KILL that first wrongly replicated cell.  The immune response should jump in and stop it.  But for some reason the imune system ignores it or is too weak to respond to it. 
 
Now if we had the answer to THAT we'd cure cancer and we'd be rich (and revered in all of history).  But as a lifelong allergy sufferer, who has truly SUCKY immunity ... that thinking makes way too much scarey sense to me.
 
Add that to the fact that allergy shots work in maybe only about 60% of the dogs who get them.  That never seemed like good odds to me, particularly when you have to deny them any allergy treatment while the shots are being formulated and the body is introduced to them. 
 
I don't have a good personal track record with pharmaceuticals myself ... if there is a way to have a bad reaction to a drug, trust me ... *I* am gonna be the one to have the bad reaction.  So, in utter truth, I'm not horribly pre-disposed to trust traditional medicine.  (That's not a tremendously admirable trait of mine -- that's not distain on my part -- it's just plain sheer honesty when I say I lack trust.) 
 
If you have a vet teaching hospital near you GO for it.  We are blessed in this country to have some stupendous ones.  As un-trusting as I am of traditional veterinary medicine, my love for the vets at the U of FL at Gainesville comes close to abject hero-worship.  But then *grin* -- they have a bunch of professors up there who whole-heartedly embrace things like acupuncture and herbals (and they are TAUGHT there as well). 
 
And if your dog is getting a good response to it that's super.  But it's probably a good idea, now knowing what you DO know, to take some extra steps to encourage that immune system to be as strong as you can make it -- avoid annual vaccines, structure food around nutrition (whether you choose good kibble, home cooking [rah rah] or a BARF approach). 
 
In other words, that doesn't mean you can't have the best of both worlds ... the shots ... if they are helpful to your dog, but cover your bases with the best health you can encourage.  And from the posts I see you do, I have a feeling that's exactly what you're striving for ... so ... at the risk of sounding trite "YOU GO GIRL!!".  *grin*.
 
And as someone said to me the other day ... which I think is probably tru of most of us on here "You know, if I believed in reincarnation ... I'd want to come back as one of YOUR dogs!"

There was an article in yesterday's paper about the issue of allergies and the link to overuse of antibiotics, antibacterial soaps, etc.  There were mixed opinions from the professionals (what's new right?), but the ones who were in agreement noted the increase in allergy problems in East Germany.  Apparently, prior to the Berlin wall coming down, East Germans had very few allergy sufferers.  Once the wall came down and the people were using more traditional medicine (antibiotics) and all the other germ killers we use on a daily basis, the number of allergy sufferers went way up.  It was an interesting but inconclusive article.  However, if the issue is a depressed immune system, then unless you can get the allergy symptoms under control and stop using antibiotics to clear up infections, you're still doing damage.  You might even be doing as much or more damage than if you used the allergen serum.  Just knowing all the antibiotics Sassy's been on starting from the day we brought her home from the shelter 4 years ago with a yeast infection in her ear up to these last few months where we thru the arsenal at her, makes me feel concerned.  Especially since the arsenal was largely ineffective.

Exactly Cathy -- we've become such a germ phobic society -- we don't let our bodies build any 'resistance' to these things because we are so phobic about 'killing' them.  So the body doesn't develop natural immunity to these things. 
 
I won't use antibacterial ANYTHING.  I live in Florida, so there are some things (like Frontline for fleas, heartworm 'prevention' etc.) that I must do to have my dogs survive here.  But I try to allow them to be exposed to things and I use the 'least' strong thing possible and try to build the immunity from within.  That's why I was so excited to find the thyroid was low in Billy -- because by bringing the body back into balance so it COULD 'deal' on a more normal level ... we've had success.
 
But that's also why I've used the Armour Thyroid rather than synthetic.  Vital component?  who knows.  Billy would tell ya HE chews his thyroid pills up like treats ... it's porcine thyroid.  What's he think?  It's bacon??? sheesh.

  Thanks for the kind and thoughtful words Callie; I really do appreciate it.  I know about Martin Goldstein and his reputation for treating dogs with cancer and allergies, but when I read his book I personally thought his case for allergy shots causing cancer was weak. It's been almost two years since I read it so I'll pick it up this week at the library and read it again ; this issue is serious enough to warrant another look at what he had to say. His book and Messonier's were very helpful in learning about supporting the immune system through nutrition; it was because of their books that I changed Jessie to a holistic kibble and supplement it with homecooking. 
    You're right about allergies being "an immune thing" ; my derm vet has recently started recommending that vaccinations for dogs with allergies be given in the winter when their immune system is under less stress because she has seen a correlation between vaccinations and allergy flare-ups in her clients' dogs. She is with the Purdue Veterinary Teaching Hospital and I'm sure her twenty years of experience is largely the reason the shots are working so well for Jessie.

And jessies_mom you TOO are right.  See the fact is, we LIVE on this planet we've made such a mess of ... WE have to live here and so do our dogs.  Sometimes you just plain have to cave and do what's best for your dog TODAY.  I said above, and I SO truly meant it ... I can't fault anyone for going with shots but it's just not *my* choice.  Like there is no "Holy" after or before *my* name for sure!! 
 
We can stand on our principles all we want ... and sink with that particular ship sometimes.  And yeah ... it's all well, good and great to say "I"m not going to use chemicals on my dog" or "I'm not going to use pharmaceuticals with THOSE side effects"...
 
BUT dang it ... if my dog is hurting or in great discomfort, then I gotta do what I can to alleviate that.
 
And then that all has to jel with the fact that most of us work out of the home, OR we work IN the home for specific reasons of our own ... but all of us have family "real life" responsibilities that we have to make priority too.
 
I may *want* to do X, Y, and Z but I've also got to be able to afford it, I've got to be able to keep my own rent paid or housepayment made TOO (cos a dog without a home to sleep in isn't gonna be healthy either!!) which also means if I have to work out of the home TO afford something I may have to shortcut something else or I'll run out of hours in a day!
 
But if we all keep kicking ideas around so we can re-think stuff as we go thru it, and so maybe JUST MAYBE I can do a little better today than I could yesterday ... then we've done a good thing.
 
And we're all a product of our own life history too -- I've lost two dogs to cancer in the past 2 years so it's admittedly a hot button with me.  One was a dog who had every breed-related health issue known on the planet and the other was an old dog who came to us 'late' who had probably been reared on Ole Roy and all the worst life had to offer.  So I keep trying.  *sigh*

well so far so good. Darby is a good sport and eats the pills as is.  I get the bottle out and she'll sit and wait patiently.  Does the same thing for her shots.
I keep watching for a change in her, just like any hopeful mom with sick kids.  I can say she's gotten up early the last 2 days, first day was 5:30 and today was 6:30~hope that doesn't continue.
She actually walked away from her food bowl tonight, again NOT normal for her.
She's a big sucker for love and has been cuddling more and more..
here's a pic of us...

Hmm - -those ARE changes -- you shouldn't SEE a major change to be honest.  The changes are extremely subtle ... I've not seen Billy refuse food -- his metabolism is just faster so he burns it 'better'. 
 
If you feel doubtful or confused about it talk to the vet.     Those aren't dumb questions/observations at all.  And the flip side of hypo thyroid (too low) is hyPER thyroid and that one is dangerous (high bloodpressure, etc.) -- so if yuou have to have the vet re-test the blood don't hesitate to ask.  You're noticing super important things.