allergy to frontline?

"allergy" to Frontline isn't the right word, but it sure could be that.  A LOT of chemicals can cause seizing -- but two days after rathe than on application?    hmmm - maybe, but maybe not too.  However if there was some sort of stress (and it wouldn't take much -- a 'mildly' stressful thing combined WITH a chemical could have a bigger likelihood of triggering a seizure).
 
I have a friend who actually does epi-dog rescue who is incredibly good at helping folks figure out seizures.  I will be happy to put you in touch with her (she does rescue down in Austin, TX, she's not a vet -- just a lady, kinda like me, who helps dogs). 
 
However, with the demodex I can probably help you.  Is the dog STILL taking the ivermectin?  When did you take the dog off it?  has the dog had any sort of vaccines of late? 
 
Demodex can come back with any sort of stress to the body -- I've seen it recur even with weather changes, holidays, or the onset of allergies!! 
 
Ivermectin would be the A#1 thing I would not want to use on a seizure dog -- simply because that is how it 'kills' the mites -- it tries to cross the semi-permeable brain membrane to disrupt the nervous system -- that's what it does, and how it kills the mites and it CAN cause dogs similar problems ... and honestly?  A sensitivity to ivermectin can occur at ANY time.
 
Has anyone told you (and I'm not treating you stupid ... I just plain don't know you *smile*) that demodex is an immune problem?  That it is actually the result OF a genetic flaw in the immune system that causes it to be "less" than normal AND also that it causes the dog to simply be overly-sensitive to this mite that all dogs have??
 
I'm astonished that they are still doing scrapings.  Once you have determined a dog is prone to demodex, there's really no reason to scrape.  Because if the mites are active you can SMELL them. 
 
When you say the dog is 'losing hair' -- do you mean all-over thinness or spots of hair loss/flakey skin or red/oozy skin?
 
I have a whole article of stuff I'd be happy to send you.  But in honesty, for a seizure dog we'd need to modify even some of that because any herb or chemical could potentially be a problem.  However, other herbs can help seizures (like valerian can often derail a seizure and keep it from occurring). 
 
Sorry for the zillion questions -- but with demodex I have a ton of experience. 
 
Oh, and I wondered -- did you wash the Frontline 'off'?? Or did no more seizures occur?

I do not know what breed/breeds your dog is, but I am thinking it is  ivermectin  that is  not good for the herding group dogs--shelties, collies, etc etc.  What kind of heart worms pills is your dog on? 
 
And yes, dogs can have a reaction to Frontline--I have seen it reported on other forums. 
 
 And I say you sure do need a new vet.  Almost every time i am in to see mine, he remembers almost every  event thta has happened to any of my dogs (luckily there have been no real illness, just injuiries, bad knees, etc) but he also talks about "the old red man", my Irish Setter, Boots that I lost to bone cancer 9 years ago this summer!

Sandra is right =-- the words didn't come out of my fingers but yes, it's ivermectin they don't give to herders (and other breeds).  However, the dose they use of ivermectin for demodex is literally 200 TIMES the dose used for heartworm prevention *and* it's given either every day or weekly.  That's one of the reasons why I'm saying if I dog had seizures *full stop* I wouldn't be using ivermectin no matter the breed. 
 
But Sandra, thanks for watching my back -- I *should* have said "you don't give ivermectin to herding dogs of ANY variety, and there are other breeds now showing sensitivity to it". 
 
Sometimes when they give ivermectin for demodex they give it for a relatively short duration ... sometimes however they just put the dog on it forever.  *sigh*  It ultimately shuts down the immune system tho when they do that and utlimately it WILL fail.  It doesn't do a good job of killing demodex mites in any event.  But in those enormous doses it literally manipulates the immune system chemically and gives a 'pseudo immune boost'. 
 
( See Sandra, first time I tried to be brief ... now you know why I don't bother *sigh* - I just have to go back and add to it later.)

Just thought I should pop in and add that there is a test available to check for the gene mutation that causes sensitivity to ivermectin should you wish to do it. 

Hi Callie and all... thanks so much for your replies... very helpful! Here's some more info if it can help you!

First, she's a beagle/hound/something mix, about 42 lbs.

Second, she's still on the Ivermectin, been on it since December, and after only one week on it her hair started growing back, so I thought it was a miracle drug!

Third, the seizure she had this recent time was very mild and she hasn't had any more since.

Fourth, the recent hair loss could be my paranoia. It could be that she's just shedding for summer, but I've just seen a lot more of her hair on the bed and in the vacuum cleaner, bringing up bad memories of when she first lost it all. Also, her coat is not smelly yet, but it is more oily than usual.

I did quite a bit of internet research about demodex when she was first diagnosed with it, so I know all about the immune system issue. At the time, it seemed that having had several seizures in a few weeks, then just gone on the phenobarbital added to moving into a new house and changing food, could easily have compromised her immune system, so the demodex wasn't out of the blue. That's why we switched her to the Flint River Ranch food... I have a rescue e-mail friend in Arkansas who suggested that.

I never read anywhere about the Ivermectin compromising the immune system, but it seems like any drug on a high dose could do that, so now I wonder what was my vet thinking? I was more worried about liver complications from the phenobarb.

So... Callie, thanks for your experience on demodex! What do you do for dogs with recurring demodectic mange?

Thanks again everyone! Nora thanks you, too!

Ivermectin is virtually the only thing vets have to use against demodex so they tend not to want to say anything 'bad' about it.  But my information comes from several sources, among which is one of my own vets (sadly the vet world lost a wonderful vet when Dr. Acre passed away last year).  Doc was part of the original team who did research and development of ivermectin -- so I have some extra info about it not generally known just from Doc.
 
Because ivermectin only stays in the body 24 hours, this is why they give it every day -- to try to get the ivermectin into the skin pores because it tends to want to only stay in the bloodstream.  It's not effective at killing the mites very well -- mostly it boosts the immune system by chemically 'turning it on'.  But like anything in nature, when a thing isn't used it atrophies -- and the immune system itself will go to sleep.
 
I sent you a PM .. but my big concern for you is that ivermectin works IN the brain (that's how it kills the parasite -- it crosses the semi-permeable brain membrane of the parasite and disrupts the nervous system so completely it dies).  Therefore I can't imagine it would be a good thing to be giving a seizure dog.  It's chemically designed to work IN the brain and ON the nervous system -- two things that would be danger zones for a seizure dog. 
 
There are other ways of dealing with demodex.  Essentially if you boost the immune system on a cellular level with supplements and vitamins so the body grows STRONGER in that respect and kickstart the immune system with some herbals (and you'll need to be cautious in your dog's case to make sure this stuff is well tolerated) but if you can get the immune system functioning like it should the demodex won't BE a problem.
 
And re: the hair thinning: demodex mites will congregate in specific areas and they literally kick the hair out of the follicles.  That's why you see little 'spots' of missing hair.  But if you are seeing general hair thinning that's not demodex.  It could indicate some general poor body health -- your concerns about liver toxicity are valid!!
 
ARe you giving milk thistle to help the body get rid of those toxins?

Wow, Callie, you're so helpful! Thanks again for all this info.

The thing with the shedding is that last time she did not have spotty hair loss, but all over bad smell, then basically hair thinning everywhere. At the time I was worried that the demodex was secondary to another skin problem, but the vet didn't seem to think so. Nora was also scratching and biting like crazy, which vet said was due to secondary skin infection (cleared up with antibiotics), but I still feel the itching came before the smell and hair loss. So I thought: maybe a flea allergy, but there were no fleas or fleabite areas, which, again, is why I became worried about a food allergy. But after the antibiotics and the Ivermectin, she stopped itching, grew all her hair back, and seemed fine!

Liver tests have all been normal, so have thyroid etc. She seems to be a healthy dog except for the hair loss. She's a bit of a spazz, very handshy and afraid of strangers, and so I honestly feel that she has an anxiety disorder, maybe based on being abused in the past. She just seems to have a high level of stress, which may also just be neurological. This seems to correlate with compromising the immune system. I know when I get stressed I am more susceptible to colds, stomachaches, etc.

Also, I've heard of using milk thistle, but haven't tried it. Are there other immuno-boosting supplements you would recommend? My rescue friend told me to give her a hard-boiled egg every day and the protein would help boost her system. Who knows if that's true or not? But everybody has their own systems for things! Anyway, she seems to enjoy eating the egg.

Well, thanks again, and armed with this new info, I think I will be much better informed to talk to the new vet. My problem is that so many vets, rescue people, breeders, etc, all seem to have different information so it's really hard to know what's what!

Love, Jacqui & Nora

Everything you are saying leads me to believe you're right -- there's another problem, and I'd bet money it's sarcops.  The sarcops will cause the itching and the general "all over hair-thinning" -- but most vets NEVER even think of  a dog having demodex and sarcops at the same time.  But that would account for the smell AND hair-thinning.
 
In fact the sarcops could have caused the demodex to pop out -- but I've heard this same story SO many times it's not funny -- particularly that it sounds like the sarcops came FIRST. 
 
The ivermectin WILL kill sarcops in a heartbeat (and at the dose for demodex it's kinda overkill, in fact)!  That's what it does best is kill blood-feasting parasites.  Another dog might not get it.  However also, they can bite humans -- but don't always. 
 
You can't catch sarcops on a scraping -- it's almost impossible.  They're too fast. 
 
I emailed you again -- if you will email me at my critturs address, I'll be glad to send you the article.  It has tons about how to boost the immune system. 
 
However -- have you just had the regular thyroid testing done or have you had it done according to Dr. Dodd's protocols??  Either by sending it to her or to Michigan State?  (she built their lab and they DO use her protocols faithfully).  Any other thyroid test is kind of a waste of money in my opinion.  (been there, done that, had it fail time and again, only to find by Dr. Dodd's standards he WAS low thyroid and wow -- talk about a NEW dog!!)
 
The hard boiled egg doesn't hurt, but it doesn't help much either.  I have home-cooked for mine for years simply because it helps their heatlh SO much.  Fresh nutrition -- there just isn't anything like it.