Khoale has unusual liver problems...

    • Gold Top Dog

    Khoale has unusual liver problems...

    I'm wondering if anyone can shed some light as the vet is stumped and we
    are moving to further diagnostic tests (x-rays tomorrow) and a referral for an
    ultrasound if that is clear.
    I brought her in for a lack of appetite, and refusal to eat. She'd try a new food (I've tried several premium kibbles, raw, canned, etc), love it for a meal or two and go off of it completely for several weeks now, sometimes going as long as two days with no food. She has been lethargic/depressed.
    Her CBC came back as:
    Kidney values ... fine
    ALT 380 ... normal is 100
    Alkaline Phosphotase 309... normal is 200
    Bilrubin is normal
    Protien levels are fine (low/normal)
    The vet thinks maybe, a liver infection, an autoimmune disorder, cancer, or
    liver shunt... most of which would be bizarre for her age (3-5 y.o.) Even
    possibly Cushings, but that should cause her to be overweight and other
    symptoms
    • Gold Top Dog
    YOu and I are playing our usual game of posting on two boards at once (Outdoorschik and I have known each other for years and post on another board, too).
     
    But I'm gonna post here what I did on Canine Club just IN CASE anyone is searching for liver infection stuff.  You've already answered me  -- HOWEVER -- the one point I should make is that not all vets seem to know that correllation between high cholesterol and high alt/phos ratio -- my one vet is just a particularly good diagnostician and taught me that tidbit a long time ago.
     
    This is what I'd posted for Outdoorschik elsewhere (not on Dog.com).  Essentially they're checking all the following.  But the caps at the bottom is meant as encouragement to ANYONE.  The liver *can* re-generate if whatever is wrong is something that can be healed.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     
    What was the [linkhttp://www.vegsource.com/animal/dogs/messages/1014631.html#]cholesterol level[/link]?? With the alt/phos that high IF the cholesterol is high as well it can point to early renal stuff (at a stage where you can still do something about it).
     
    Rack your brain HARD -- can you identify any way she may have eaten something that was horrifically spoiled (gotten in the trash, eaten another dog's puke) ANYthing to have infected the liver? That's what happened with Foxy -- and we were able to pull him completely out of it.
     
    Now honestly, it took a ot of Chinese herbs -- there is a Chinese herb that is similar to [linkhttp://www.vegsource.com/animal/dogs/messages/1014631.html#]milk thistle[/link] and they put Fox on gobs of it. Big guns antibiotics.
     
    Foxy's Ultrasound looked HORRIBLE. I had four vets telling me to put him to sleep but I knew in my heart of hearts it came on TOO sudden and I *knew* he'd likely gone outside and eaten something somebuddy had thrown up the night before (maybe even him). But it laid in the Florida heat for 24 hours and THEN he ate it. He threw it right up again but that bacteria just tore thru him.
     
    When we took him to the e-vet he was pantin panting panting ... and the evet was sure it was 'heart' -- until he saw his numbers and x-rays and then said "this dog is in liver failure and it's probably [linkhttp://www.vegsource.com/animal/dogs/messages/1014631.html#]liver cancer[/link] -- we should put him to sleep".
    NO WAY. The vet wouldn't listen to me when I told him what I thot had happened. "No this liver has been bad for a long time -- LOOK at these x-rays."
     
    Well yeah -- thay looked awful ...BUT as we proved in pretty short order it WAS an infection.
     
    Foxy's temp at first was normal -- that's what threw all the regular vets off -- no temp = no infection.
    BUT HE WAS PANTING. That little sheltie was panting cos he was feverish -- and once they sedated him to sleep and he shut that little mouth, his temp SPIKED.
     
    Dr. D's office (the other vet that works with her) caught it when she looked at his [linkhttp://www.vegsource.com/animal/dogs/messages/1014631.html#]records[/link]. She pointed and said "SEE -- his temp spiked after he quit panting and went to sleep. It IS an infection."
     
    Dr. Bailey had even done an ultrasoundw hich looked as bad, or worse, than the x-rays. But honestly I held my ground. He had NOT been acting sick. NOT AT ALL. So I got them to let me try antibiotics (with 4 vets -- not Dr. D's office, but everyone else -- thinking I was solid gold NUTS). But he resonded to them.
     
    Don't make a decision on this fast -- please don't. And with Foxy the first one they put him on was Biaxin -- and I know it made his stomach upset--- so I asked for another antibiotic (and I know the vets just thot he was so toxic from [linkhttp://www.vegsource.com/animal/dogs/messages/1014631.html#]liver failure[/link] and poor Mrs. K just doesn't want to believe it ...)
     
    but NOPE -- soon as they got him on Baytrill, which agreed with his stomach better, HE GOT BETTER.
     
    Don't let them jump to conclusions. Foxy was on a ton of herbs and big guns [linkhttp://www.vegsource.com/animal/dogs/messages/1014631.html#]antibiotics[/link] for a while -- but it did the trick.   Even at the advanced age of 17 1/2 he healed completely from that.
     
    DON'T FORGET -- **** THE LIVER WILL REGENERATE ****
     
    Good luck.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Bloodwork is often just one piece of the puzzle... the liver enzymes aren't all that high (I would expect them in the thousands) to be a liver infection...

    Is she on any medications?
    • Bronze
    I'd have her checked for Addison's disease.  Typically young females are affected...and have the symptoms you describe...lack of appetite, weight loss, lethargy. Often have a history of being "picky" eaters...sometimes with minor recurrent gastro upset.  I'll be thinking of you...hope you're able to find the answers after tomorrow's appointment  ...feel better soon, Khoale.   
    • Gold Top Dog
    • Gold Top Dog
    Misskiwiw - no, she's not on any meds... the vet commented that in a dog with no symptoms or who was senior he might not be ultra concerned since the levels are not in the thousands like you said, but coupled with the dramatic change in personality and appetitie he is quite concerned.
    Callie - I will ask specifically about cholesterol today.
    jbv - i'll ask about Addison's
    Janet - thanks for the info.. I'll certainly be doing more reading as we figure out what is up with her.
    thanks so much for the input everyone.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Just got back form the vet...
    the x-rays showed nothing so we are on to the ultrasound next week... another vet, not my own, went over the x-rays with me, she couldn't see any exceptonal inflammation or weird growths.
    The cholesterol levels were normal, but I did notice that the sodium levels were below the normal range on the test which certainly could fit with addison's...
    On Monday I'll be talking about all of this with my vet when he is back, I hate to play "armchair" vet but it is certainly worh asking about testing for addison's since she fits the age gender and many symptoms.
    • Gold Top Dog
      Karen, I just wanted to offer support and healing vibes for Khoale. I hope the cause is diagnosed soon and that it's treatable.
    • Bronze
    I've been thinking about Khoale.  Any updates?
    • Gold Top Dog
    Surprisingly, for no reason at all that I can figure out, Khoale ate all her meals this weekend and has been "perky" for the first time in weeks!
    I spoke with the vet today and he and I agreed that we should wait for further diagnostics to see if she continues to improve on her own. I'll be supplementing with Milk Thistle extract to support the liver. It is possible that there was an "acute assault" on the liver due to something nasty she ate that I was not aware of that coudl have caused this. It is possible we will never know what was wrong or why. If she gets worse again we will go for further diagnostics.. if she continues on this path she will have blood work in 4-6 weeks to see if there are any changes in the elevated levels. It is possible this could resolve on its own!
    thanks so much for checking in on us.. i've wanted to post an update but I also didnt' want to jinx this spree of eatting and acting healtheir :)

    Karen
    • Gold Top Dog
    I'm just going to reiterate here -- Milk Thistle, Milk Thistle, Milk Thistle, Milk Thistle, Milk Thistle, Milk Thistle, Milk Thistle, Milk Thistle, Milk Thistle, Milk Thistle, Milk Thistle, Milk Thistle, Milk Thistle, Milk Thistle, Milk Thistle ...
     
    I know that's what your vet has told you as well -- but it will help heal the liver and help detox it. 
    • Gold Top Dog

    outdoorschik
    Surprisingly, for no reason at all that I can figure out, Khoale ate all her meals this weekend and has been "perky" for the first time in weeks! 

    [sm=dance.gif]  [sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]  [sm=dance.gif]  [sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]  [sm=dance.gif]
    • Bronze

    You seem to be very knowledgable about liver issues and since you're going to several vets maybe you can offer some suggestions for me?  My dog is 13 so liver disease is not really that surprising with his age but what worries me is that my vet never really seems to know exactly what she's doing.  My dog had an ATL level just over 300 a couple months ago and when I got him tested again just last week it's only down to 289.  He has improvement in a lot of his levels but it's just not very much and I'm wondering what else I can be doing for him or what else it could possibly be?  I thought about asking for just a general antibiotic for him just in case it was an infection of some sort.  Would that be a bad idea?  Are there any negative affects to an antibiotic if there doesn't necessarily seem to be an infection anywhere?  I posted about Cody's situation in another message board so if anyone has the time to read it and offer ANY advice I would be so appreciative!

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