Allergies and Annual Vaccinations

I have to ask, shy she is not considering every 3 years since that is what ALL 29 (or is it 27???) veterinarian schools are calling for

 
  I don't know Dyan, except that she is basing her recommendations on what she has seen in her practice ; is the three year recommendation just for rabies or all vaccines? It will be interesting to see what the vets who have recently gotten their licences do about vaccinations since they have presumably been taught to do them every three years. I have read that titers aren't relaible because of the wide variability between labs of methodology and reporting.  

From what I understand, all of the veterinarian schools have changed their recommendations on Vaccines (not Rabies) to a 3 year protocol.
When I asked my vet why they don't follow those recommendations he said because even though they think 3 years is okay, they don't know. BUT they really never KNEW that yearly was neccessary. They just decided somewhere along the line to do it every year.    Then I asked him why we don't give our kids YEARLY vaccinations and he said because our kids are not going around sniffing other kids butss and licking things they shouldn't.  So....................   But I also heard another idea, and that is the packages of the vaccines say "yearly" and because of that, if I dog were to get one of these illnesses and the vet didn't follow the package instructions, that he could be sued.   But again, getting vaccinations does NOT assure you that your dog will not get the illness.    
 

Hello, I just joined this site after reading this forum. I have been searching for a few hours on the web because I took my 8 month old chocolate min pin to the vet today for her vaccination and two hours later she broke out in hives! I called the vet and they had me bring her back. They gave her a shot of cotazone and sent us home. The hives went down and appeared to even go away then about three and a half hours later she broke out again[:@]! I called the vet again and they said that they would only give her Benadryl. We ask if we could give her our Benadryl. They told us that we could give her half of one. The hives have not gone away and I gave her the Benadryl two and a half hours ago. They have even gotten worse! They said to call the emergency number if she started having trouble breathing. I think she may be having trouble but I am not sure how to know. Her back bounces slightly when she breathes in. I am so worried and frustrated that the vaccine has done this to her.

The doseage for dogs is 1-2 mg PER POUND, so a 25 mg benedry is going to be about 1/2 for the proper dose depending on her weight.  But, you can give it every few hours, and hopefully someone else remembers if it's 2 or 4 hours.
 
Cortizone is often used for allergic reactions and SHOULD have done the trick.  What vaccines did she get?  8 months is a bit old for her shots.  Did you recently get her or has the vet been vaccinating all along?

Vet now -- if you even **THINK** she's having trouble just plain go.  I can't believe it worsened and they didn't say bring her in.  By the time breathing is obstructed it can be too late.  Don't dither -- just plain GO.  The hives shouldn't have worsened -- but did they give Benedryl at FIRST?? 
 
You'd use the 2 mg/lb dose  -- half a benedryl would be 12.5 mg and a min pin is what maybe 6 pounds??  That's the classic dose but it should have worked.  Just go to the vet - it's a more complicated reaction and needs vet help.

Glenda and Callie are right; you need to get her to the vet ASAP; and I also agree about looking for a different vet after this. I won't go into details but I had a similar situation with our vet and my dog ended up very sick as a result and had to go to an emergency clinic; after that we found a new vet. Please get your dog to the vet NOW; I sure hope she'll be okay.

Thanks for replying. She is feeling better now. We went to visit my father-in-law (he has a min pin and a minature poodle), and the visit made her feel better. By the time we got there her hives had gone back down (I guess the Benadryl kicked in). The weird thing is that she is 13 pounds and half of one is not enough. She still has a few bumps, so I gave her another dose (it has been 6 hrs.) of 25 mg this time. I will let you know what happens. I started a new forum about it. (My baby got sick from her vaccine!) Thanks!

Jessie's mom,
 
I'm just curious (just jumped in on this one!), why do you even want to continue vaccinating? Your dog has had enough vaccines for several dogs, and your derm vet is right, vaccines DO have something to do with allergies (a lot of the time)! So why do you still want to get vaccinations?
 
My dogs show about two weekends a month during the summer. I'm a vet tech, so who knows what I bring home on my clothes. I bring in unvaccinated foster dogs. I constantly take my dogs to training classes, trials, fun matches, etc. And yet, none of my dogs have been vaccinated for the past 3 years except Rabies (which I'm trying to get an exemption for anyway). My 1-year-old has never been vaccinated except rabies and one bordatella her breeder gave her. What does this prove? Well, that my dogs have functioning immune systems first of all!
 
But I'm concerned about your vet still giving your dog vaccs even after the allergy issue. I have a dog with chronic allergic dermatitis which my vet thinks is due to overvaccination. She was my first dog so I did everything "right." ie, vaccinations every 2 weeks or whatever while she was a puppy. When I went back to get her last booster, she had a reaction. A few weeks later she started with the generalized itchies. It progressed to foot chewing, chronic ear infections, and yeast overgrowth within the year. I don't think it's coincidence, and neither does my vet.
 
I'd seriously consider never vaccinating your little puppers ever again... including rabies. Technically, your dog is "not completely healthy" and never will be, therefore you can apply for a rabies exemption because the label states that the vaccine is ONLY to be given to healthy dogs free of disease. Seriously, consider this, do some research, and talk to your vet about it!
 
Hope that helps a little... I know there's so much conflicting information out there!

Hi vettech06; I'm unsure about what I'm going to do at this time but am seriously considering no more vaccinations except for rabies, which she won't need for three years because the law recently changed in our state. My vet trained at Purdue veterinary teaching hospital where my derm vet is and worked with her as part of his training. He has a great deal of respect for her and I'm sure he would follow her recommendations about waiting till winter to vaccinate and vaccinating every few years instead of annually for older dogs like Jessie, who is seven. I know that for some here it seems like that thinking is from the dark ages but it's a step in the right direction. She does go out every day and frequently meets other dogs so it is important that she have immunity from distemper and parvo so I don't think it's unreasonable for her to have those shots every other year but I am still gathering information and have not made a firm decision yet. By the way, Jessie first started itching in the spring of 2000 from pollen six months after her shots so her allergies were not caused by vaccinations. Her problem in the fall of 2004 when she had the head swelling and the pustules on her eyelids and nose had to do with the fact that she was under a lot of sress from her allergies ( watery eyes, ear infection, and interdigital dermatitis) at the time she had her vaccinations and it was too much for her immune system to handle. Since she's been on allergen immunotherapy she no longer gets ear or skin infections and is a very healthy dog.
   The pup in your avatar is adorable;  do you have more pics?

He has a great deal of respect for her and I'm sure he would follow her recommendations about waiting till winter to vaccinate and vaccinating every few years instead of annually for older dogs like Jessie, who is seven.

 
Your vet believes it is necessary to vaccinate a seven year old dog? Believe me, by now she probably has sufficient immunity to the "unspeakables" of distemper and parvo. I don't know how to say this any better but "booster" shots DO NOT booster immunity. It does not bring the level of protection up. All it does is create a "flare up" of disease-fighting cells because you are introducing the disease into the dog! That's what a titer represents, is the amount of disease fighters in the blood at any given time. If I were to titer a dog who hasn't been out of my house in several months, she'd probably titer low... however, if I were to send in blood right after coming home from a 3-day show, I would be willing to bet good money that she'd titer high. Which is why it's all a game. Titer at the wrong time and it looks like your dog is "below" the protected level... which we don't even KNOW where the so-called protected level IS!!! And if your dog (heaven forbid) falls below this protected level titer, giving a booster shot will do nothing but temporarily raise the titer... your dog may have been immune in the first place, or she may still not be immune. It's a big guessing game really.
 
I have a friend who teaches obedience and agility classes. She raised her GSD completely vaccine free and on raw food, exposing this dog DAILY to all of her puppy classes, agility classis, and the shows she went to. She titered this dog at 1 year of age and his titer came back as if he had just been vaccinated!
 

....She does go out every day and frequently meets other dogs so it is important that she have immunity from distemper and parvo so I don't think it's unreasonable for her to have those shots every other year but I am still gathering information and have not made a firm decision yet.

 
Again, if she's seven, and she's had vaccinations, and she's in decent health, this shouldn't be an issue. I'm just concerned about the allergies and vaccinations issue. Your dog is not healthy, and even the vaccine manufacturer states that vaccines should NOT be given to diseased dogs. We've come to accept allergies as a part of life, when in reality, it's a disease! Since I found out about the effects of vaccines and food on allergies, I myself have been watching what I put into my own body (I have allergies to almost everything that has dander... dogs, cats, and especially horses) and I have actually been able to eliminate my athsma attacks and successfully go off of all of my medications (two inhaled steroids and an Rx allergy pill).
 
I can't make you do anything or convince you that "my way is the only way" (LOL, that's ridiculous)... we're all at different stages of learning on the topic I believe and there are others here who probably know WAY more than I do. But I would definitely suggest no more vaccinations. Also a holistic or naturopathic vet in your area would be able to offer a lot more wisdom on the topic than I can...
 

I do titers every year and my vet does the same for her dog.  Since your furkid is 7yo I would consider doing the titers.   Of course it really depends on your dogs life style.     

If I were to titer a dog who hasn't been out of my house in several months, she'd probably titer low... however, if I were to send in blood right after coming home from a 3-day show, I would be willing to bet good money that she'd titer high

 
Is that really true?  I thought that a titer was based on the level of immunity.  If you read this, a dog may either show an immunity thru titering because of vaccinations or exposure, but it doesn't really make any difference which it is and I don't get the impression it fluctuates just by being around other dogs.  Am I reading the post or the article wrong?
 
Titer tests do not distinguish between the immunity generated by vaccination and that generated by natural exposure to disease agents. A dog may have developed immunity to a viral disease by receiving a vaccine against the disease, by being exposed to the disease in the natural environment and conquering it, sometimes without having demonstrated any symptoms of exposure to the disease, or by a combination of the two. Therefore, titer tests really measure both the “priming of the pump” that comes from vaccines, and the immunity resulting from natural exposure to disease during a dog#%92s lifetime. Only an indoor dog that has been totally sequestered from the natural environment is likely to have developed all of its immunity from vaccinations. Although the magnitude of immunity protection received by vaccination only is usually lower than by vaccination plus exposure, it doesn#%92t matter how your dog developed its strong immunity to specific viral diseases, as long as the immunity is present. By “titering” annually, a dog owner can assess whether her dog#%92s immune response has fallen below adequate levels. In that event, an appropriate vaccine booster can be administered. 

ORIGINAL: cakana

If I were to titer a dog who hasn't been out of my house in several months, she'd probably titer low... however, if I were to send in blood right after coming home from a 3-day show, I would be willing to bet good money that she'd titer high

Is that really true?  I thought that a titer was based on the level of immunity. 

 
We had Dr. Bob Rogers (dvm) come and lecture at our last Samoyed national specialty and it was very informative. He made the comment that if your dog had a low titer it could be raised by exposure to dog parks or a dog show.
 
Note: I am talking here about distemper and parvo. There are other diseases where it is not possible to develop a lifetime immunity. Lepto, kennel cough and giardia for example. Luckily, lepto is not a problem where I live and the others are not serious in a healthy dog.
 
Here is how he explained it. When you give a dog with a mature immune system (over six months) a MLV (modified live vaccine) the dog will develop memory cells. Memory cells are what produce antibodies and memory cells last for the life of the animal. If the animal is exposed to the viral trigger (active virus, remnants of the virus in the environment, even droppings from a recently vaccinated dog) then the memory cells will produce antibodies which can be measured by a titer test. If a dog never goes anywhere then it is possible that the amount of antibodies circling in their blood will drop, due to lack of exposure. So a high titer is good proof of immunity, a low titer may just mean lack of exposure. Here's a page from his website that explains it better. [linkhttp://www.critteradvocacy.org/K9%20Recommendations.htm]http://www.critteradvocacy.org/K9%20Recommendations.htm[/link]
 
While I believe overvaccination is a very real problem, I would NEVER advocate not vaccinating at all. Back in the first part of the 20th century before the distemper vaccine, many many great dogs died from the disease. Back in the early 70s when Parvo first showed up, a whole lot of puppies died from the disease. Most of these animals did not die because they had a defective immune system. They died because these diseases can be fatal. When you hear nowadays about people who do not vaccinate their dogs at all, they are relying on what is called herd immunity. If a high enough percentage of the herd is vaccinated, an unvaccinated animal may also be safe. There just aren't enough unprotected animals for the diseases to run rampant. Also, an unprotected dog can pick up immunity to the disease from their environment. Being around recently vaccinated dogs who are shedding the (modified) virus is one way. If enough people stop vaccinating their dogs then the herd immunity will break down and we will have epidemics again. I certainly do not want to go back to the bad old days before vaccinations were available. Just use them wisely.

Jessie's Mom
Oh, he was sick alright. The vet says he's seen dogs lose their toes and pieces of their ears to this. Many just plain die of the secondary bacterial infections (Oscar was close...his fever was SO high). Here's Oscar's picture (the beagle in back is his 'best friend' Max...my boyfriend's sweet sweet peanut) in case you're curious.

Rachel,
You seem to be very knowledgeable and I appreciate your explanation.  I haven't gone with titering yet, but having a lab with lots of allergy problems, it's something I've been interested in knowing more about.  Of course, I'd only consider not vaccinating if I was certain that I wasn't increasing the risk of acquiring the diesease.
You mention a Samoyed Natl Conf.  Do you have a Samoyed?  I had one not so long ago, and she was the light of my life.  What a sweet, beautiful dog she was.
Anyway, I hope you'll stick around.  You seem to have a great deal to share.