Ellie's urine isn't acidic enough

Oops--forgot to add that she's currently eating Flint River Ranch--the lamb and millet kind.
 
What else could she eat that is still good food?

I just recently went thru this with one of my dogs, and I have learned how to collect pee and monitor it myself.  Although, I'll say right now that having tried 3 different brands of pH strips, that none seem very accurate.  But, they do put you enough in the range of where it's at to notice a difference.

It might be the food, overall.  Or, it might be that just this last bag or two wasn't pH balanced.  Or, it could be something else. Sometimes a bladder infection can cause the pH to change, and sometimes having the pH off balance can allow an infection to take place.  My boy did develop an infection along with crystals.   And, you will have to have it checked again in a few weeks to make sure an infection hasn't developed and to check on the crystals. (struvites, I'm assuming).

Anyhow, this is what I learned:  You can give two or three blueberries per meal - keep testing the pH your self so you will have an idea of where the pH is at.  Or, you can purchase some plain cranberry capsules and give her a part of one.  What I discovered was that the blueberries work, but the cranberry capsules work faster.

HOWEVER, and I was warned of this - and it is really true- they can head to the other end of the pH spectrum REALLY FAST.  I only gave  1/4 capsule of cranberrry << one capsule was 500 mg. standarized to 6% quinic acid>> to my 45 pound dog at two seperate meals, and then his pH was TOO LOW.  It went from too alkaline to too acidic that fast.  So,  I think it is better to just expect for it to take a couple of days to get back to normal, and be willing to go a bit slow with it. If the reading wasn't really that bad, then I would try the blueberries first.  It was really scarey that it changed that much that fast.  So, you have to think of this like "medicine", and not just a supplement.    That's why you need to test yourself frequently -- I tested twice a day at least during this episode.  (Thank goodness for frisbee's for girls and ladles for boys!)

I did have to repeat the 1/4 capsule amount again, but after that, it has been fine.    Since you didn't say what the reading was, I'm not sure how bad it really is.  In the end, you might need to change food, but you won't know that for awhile (again, it could have been just this current bag was off).  And, if you do change, I don't see any reason why you would need to feed SD.  There are lots of other better foods out there - but I think it's too early to tell.  And just FYI, I actually did not continue using the bag of food that this occured on with my guys.  I just wanted to make sure, and I switched to Cal. Natural (local store) just to be on the safe side b/c I wanted the infection cleared up and didn't want to take the chance that that one bag that they had been eating was off. Just my precautions on that.

I am having the same exact problem with my 18 week old puppy.  PH is too high, crystals in the urine, but a urine culture came back negative for bacteria.  The vet suggested 100mg of vitamin C to see if that lowers the PH.  I'm going to start that tomorrow.  Any thoughts on C?

I give mine cranberry but I only do it as long as I figure they are dealing with infection or whatever the problem is -- cranberry, Vit C -- both are really good options.  But values like that will fluctuate all over the frigging place!!  But you might also consider maybe too much protein ???  I know that is NOT a populat concept in this day and age -- everyone (*but me??*) thinks they've gotta have their dogs on these high protein diets and yet kidney/bladder problems are just huge.  *sigh*  So I cautiously raise my head and ask "anyone think maybe too much protein is a problem?" and I get shot down ... but heck, I just like my dogs to live a long, long time and my experience (did Imention I'm older than dirt??) says too much protein is a problem.
 
I'll shut up now.

I'll pass on some info I found when studying the effects of carbohydrates on urine issues - some of the studies were done on cats, some on dogs:
 
 recent study evaluated the effects of dietary carbohydrates on urine volume, struvite crystal formation and calcium, phosphorus and magnesium balance in clinically normal cats. The study, documented in the American Journal of Veterinary Research, concluded that starch and fiber in diets may stimulate the formation of struvite crystals. Therefore, in order to prevent the formation of struvite crystals, pet owners should reduce dietary carbohydrates in their cat#%92s diet.  In addition, feeding of a high fiber diet caused a net loss of body calcium, phosphorus and magnesium. This suggests that dietary inclusion of insoluble fiber could increase macromineral requirements of cats.1

American Journal of Veterinary Research February 2004 (Vol 65; No. 2: pp. 127-252 abstract only as access to the studies require membership or $15.00

[linkhttp://avmajournals.avma.org/action/showMultipleAbstracts]http://avmajournals.avma.org/action/showMultipleAbstracts[/link]


[linkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14974568]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14974568[/link]

Protein  & struvite crystals
[linkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8950426]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8950426[/link]

 

OK - well, the above link for the AVMA is bringing up a blank page, so, I'll copy & paste but for those of you that have a memebership, you can access the entire study.


Abstract
American Journal of Veterinary Research
February 2004, Vol. 65, No. 2, Pages 138-142
doi:10.2460/ajvr.2004.65.138



Evaluation of effects of dietary carbohydrate on formation of struvite crystals in urine and macromineral balance in clinically normal cats

Dr. Masayuki Funaba, PhDAkira Uchiyama, BSKen-ichiro Takahashi, DVMMasahiro Kaneko, BSHiromi Yamamoto, DVMKazuhiko Namikawa, DVM, PhDTsunenori Iriki, PhDYoshikazu Hatano, BSMatanobu Abe, PhD
Laboratory of Nutrition, School of Veterinary Medicine, Azabu University, 1-17-71 Fuchinobe, Sagamihara 229-8501, Japan. (Funaba, Uchiyama, Takahashi, Namikawa, Iriki, Abe); Research and Development Center, Nihon Nosan Kogyo K. K., 5246 Takura, Tsukuba 300-2615, Japan. (Kaneko, Yamamoto, Hatano)
Objective—To evaluate effects of dietary carbohydrate on urine volume; struvite crystal formation; and calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium balance in clinically normal cats.

Animals—21 healthy adult cats (15 sexually intact males and 6 sexually intact females).

Procedure—Diets containing no carbohydrate source (control diet), control plus starch, or control plus fiber were given in a 3 × 3 Latin-square design. The diets were available ad libitum in study 1 (n = 12) and given under restrictions in study 2 (9) to equalize daily intakes of crude protein among the 3 groups. Formation of struvite crystals and balance of calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium were measured.

Results—Urine volume was lower in the starch group and fiber group in study 1, whereas no differences were detected among the groups in study 2. Urinary pH and struvite activity product were higher in the starch group in both studies, and the fiber group also had higher struvite activity product in study 2. In both studies, urinary concentrations of HCl-insoluble sediment were higher in the starch group and fiber group. In the fiber group, a net loss of body calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium was detected in study 2.

Conclusions and Clinical Relevance—Starch and fiber in diets potentially stimulate formation of struvite crystals. Hence, reducing dietary carbohydrate is desirable to prevent struvite urolith formation. In addition, a net loss of body calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium during feeding of the fiber diet suggests that dietary inclusion of insoluble fiber could increase macromineral requirements of cats. (Am J Vet Res 2004;65:138–142)

more:
 
Am J Vet Res. 2002 Mar;63(3):330-7.   

Associations between dry dietary factors and canine calcium oxalate uroliths.

Lekcharoensuk C, Osborne CA, Lulich JP, Pusoonthornthum R, Kirk CA, Ulrich LK, Koehler LA, Carpenter KA, Swanson LL.

Minnesota Urolith Center, Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Minnesota, St Paul 55108, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To identify factors in dry diets associated with the occurrence of calcium oxalate (CaOx) uroliths in dogs. ANIMALS: 600 dogs with CaOx uroliths and 898 dogs without urinary tract diseases. PROCEDURE: Univariate and multivariate logistic regression were performed. RESULTS: Compared with diets with the highest concentrations of sodium, dry diets with the lowest concentrations of sodium, phosphorus, calcium, chloride, protein, magnesium, or potassium were linearly associated with increased risk of CaOx urolith formation. Significant nonlinear associations between increased occurrence of CaOx uroliths and urine acidifying potential and low moisture content were observed. Significant nonlinear associations between decreased occurrence of CaOx uroliths and carbohydrate and fiber contents were observed. A significant association between the occurrence of CaOx uroliths and dietary fat was not observed. CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Results suggest that dry diets formulated to contain high concentrations of protein, calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, sodium, potassium, and chloride may minimize formation of CaOx uroliths. In addition, comparison of risk and protective factors of various diet ingredients fed to dogs with CaOx uroliths suggests that although similar findings were observed in canned and dry formulations, in general, greater risk is associated with dry formulations. However, before these hypotheses about dietary modifications are adopted by food manufacturers, they must be investigated by use of appropriately designed clinical studies of dogs with CaOx urolithiasis.

PMID: 11911566 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Last one, I promise.
 
Am J Vet Res. 2002 Feb;63(2):163-9.   Related Articles, Links

Associations between dietary factors in canned food and formation of calcium oxalate uroliths in dogs.

Lekcharoensuk C, Osborne CA, Lulich JP, Pusoonthornthum R, Kirk CA, Ulrich LK, Koehler LA, Carpenter KA, Swanson LL.

Minnesota Urolith Center, Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Minnesota, St Paul 55108, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To identify dietary factors in commercially available canned foods associated with the development of calcium oxalate (CaOx) uroliths in dogs. ANIMALS: 117 dogs with CaOx uroliths and 174 dogs without urinary tract disease. PROCEDURE: Case dogs were those that developed CaOx uroliths submitted to the Minnesota Urolith Center for quantitative analysis between 1990 and 1992 while fed a commercially available canned diet. Control dogs were those without urinary tract disease evaluated at the same veterinary hospital just prior to or immediately after each case dog. A content-validated multiple-choice questionnaire was mailed to each owner of case and control dogs with the permission of the primary care veterinarian. Univariate and multivariate logistic regressions for each dietary component were performed to test the hypothesis that a given factor was associated with CaOx urolith formation. RESULTS: Canned foods with the highest amount of protein, fat, calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, sodium, potassium, chloride, or moisture were associated with a decreased risk of CaOx urolith formation, compared with diets with the lowest amounts. In contrast, canned diets with the highest amount of carbohydrate were associated with an increased risk of CaOx urolith formation. CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Feeding canned diets formulated to contain high amounts of protein, fat, calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, sodium, potassium, chloride, and moisture and a low amount of carbohydrate may minimize the risk of CaOx urolith formation in dogs.

Thanks everybody. I am on my way out the door now but I will write back--I promise.
 
Do you all think my dog food is the cause? The vet seems to think so. That and that some breeds are more prone (even though she's a mixed breed). This is says no less than 23% protein. Well, according to a couple of posts, starches are what did it.
 
I did feed her some of my waffle the other night . . .
 
At any rate, I'll write more later--after I digest. I do know that her whole life she's been what I've called "a peepot." She go a little and then go a little more, etc. And that's a sign. Lovely.
 
Oh no. A new thing to worry over!
 
Thanks again for the feedback.

Wow- I'm dealing with the exact same problem. Daisy has struvite crystals, no stones. We were on a course of antibiotics for 2 weeks, no improvement (as the vet thought that crystals were caused by a UTI)
 
Vet doesn't think it's the food- and it's hard to change foods with her since she has sooo many issues on it- (all the Rx diets have beef and corn in them- which make Daisy vomit profusely and turn as red as a cherry- she's highly allergic to beef). We have her on NB Duck and Potato and the sales Rep just emailed me back and said that the "target urine pH" for the food is 6.5-6.7- so I don't know if food could be the cause. Daisy is currently taking "Uroeze" to acidify her urine. She's on it for 3 weeks and then we'll re-check. I have heard to give distilled water for a little while (not long term as it will leach minerals) to flush out the system.

BE AWARE: Royal Canin recently had a Rx food recall on the gel cans of S/O (which is for urinary problems). I printed up an article and took it with me to the vet.
 
Here's a great article about bladder stones and crystals that is taken from Lew's site who does the k9 nutrition yahoo group.
[linkhttp://b-naturals.com/Dec2002.php]http://b-naturals.com/Dec2002.php[/link]
 
 

Just keep an open mind to diet being a possible helper in relieving the issue.   Quite often the only relation a vet will put to urinary problems and diet is with ash and that simply isn't the only diet related contributor to consider- new studies have shown that ash isn't the contributing problem at all, but, older studies show it is.  Experience and research have lead me to believe that diet is a huge problem with urinary crystals, both struvite and oxalate and I've seen what a change in diet can do. 
 
Read through the studies, do some research on your own and do what you think is best for your dog. 

One of my dog's vets developed a veterinary line of prescription foods. He says that adding more protein makes urine more acidic whereas adding more carbs will make it more alkaline.

I too am dealing with this in our English Setter.  He went through a UTI and crystals 'issue' last July/August (that cleared up) but at our yearly visit on Friday I had a urinalysis done and low and behold the crystals are back.  Last time he showed signs of the infection, this time since there is no infection there has been no sign.  No unusual urinating patterns or anything.  It's a bit frustrating when we don't even know it's happening !
 
Anyhow......we are using DL-Methionine as an acidifier.  It's what I use on our cat with FLUTD as well.  At this point we are not sure if the ES is going to need to be on an acidifier forever.  My vet did in fact suggest it could very well be food related, so I'm switching back to what he was on last August (Pinnacle fish & potato) and we're going to give it a couple of months to judge. 
 
Wysong also makes an acidifier powder suppliment (that I also use on the FLUTD cat) that I will look into as well if the ES needs lifetime support. 
 
[linkroduct_Code=BIOTIC_pH-&Category_Code=SUP&roduct_Count=6]http://wysong.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=WOTTPWS&roduct_Code=BIOTIC_pH-&Category_Code=SUP&roduct_Count=6[/link]>http://wysong.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=WOTTPWS&roduct_Code=BIOTIC_pH-&Category_Code=SUP&roduct_Count=6]http://wysong.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=WOTTPWS&roduct_Code=BIOTIC_pH-&Category_Code=SUP&roduct_Count=6[/link]
 
As a sidenote:  I dealt with MAJOR urinary issues with our 2nd Pyr that had a horrible urinary defect.  I used cranberry extract then to deal with the Ph issues and I found it a bit unstable compared to what I use now.  I have not yet had an issue with DL-Methionine pushing the Ph to the other end of the spectrum like I saw with cranberry.  For what it's worth !

I've never heard of a vet suggesting a major diet change for this problem without doing a trial of something simple like vitamin C first. I know a number of folks who think this problem is related to dehydration more than diet per se. Simply switching from a dry kibble to a wet food (canned, home cooked) can sometimes cure it.