Dog Community

Nerological problem? Is it Seizure or Tick related?

Lynn

Posted : 11/13/2006 2:44:06 AM

Well, it's 2:15 a.m.   I'm going to write this a try and get a few hours sleep. One of 4 possible things happened toninght, but I'm discounting the 4th. It is possible that he ate a mushroom on our walk since there are some out (most with orange heads), but I do not think that happened. So, I'll move on to my story.

My boy, midnight, didn't poop on our last walk tonight.  He sometimes doesn't, but it is more usual that he does poop on every walk after a meal. This may not be important, just adding all the facts I can think of.   What is notable is that he then  wouldn't go to bed this evening. That is extremely odd since he begs to be on my bed (despite having his own bed that's made of the same material.)

So, I went on and when he didn't follow, I yelled and yelled for him. Maybe 10 -15 minutes later he comes in there, hops on the bed and goes to all 4 corners twice, then leaves. He's the type to just hop up and plop down. Very unusual.   So, in a few more minutes, he decides to come back to bed.

I don't have carpeting, so I can hear him coming thru the rooms and it sounded as if he only had three legs, or if something big and bulky was on the forth leg. So, I turn the light on and witness him doing this thing where he is trying to move foward, but his body is jerking him sideways and just slightly foward. Definaely a jerking type of motion. It's constant, which is why he couldn't walk normally into the bedroom.   I've read on here of dogs having "seizures" when they sleep, but he wasn't asleep, and apparently was starting to have problems when he came into the bedroom the first time, so I *think* he was fully awake. This lasted a few minutes. I'm panicked at this point, and go into another part of the house to prepare to go to the emergency room. When I get back to the room he is in, he has quit doing it, but acts like he wants outside. We go out, and he only wants to eat dirt / mud. After several bites, I bring him back in. He seems legarthic, like you would be in the middle of the night. I stayed in a chair with him for over an hour, and now I was able to make him go to bed.

Possible causes?:

1) One week ago, I suspect he may have swallowed a green pine cone. These are un-opened, about 4 1/2' long, and very hard. No proof, but strong suspicion. There wasn't any attempts at vomiting or diarrhea, so I've just left it alone (as in no x-rays). I have heard that pine needles are high in arsenic, but I don't know if this is true, and if it applies to pine cones.

2) He has had several ticks on him this past week. One tick, about a week ago, I couldn't pull the head out. Two more ticks got so fat that they just fell off of him. There is one area that a tick must have been in that is really sticky, bloody.   (( Now, he lives with me, in my lap, on the bed, lots of petting -- but he has this thick terrier fur and even if I do find a tick by accident, it can be extremely hard to re-locate it in order to pull it off. I'm saying this b/c it sounds like I don't check him - but his fur is so thick it easily covers up the feel of a tick.))     Can he get neourological signs this early from a tick bite from two weeks ago? Is there a list anywhere of what to look for in cases like this. I know, from what Callie has been thru, that a tick disease that starts with "E" is pretty nasty, but this isn't necessarily a tick problem. I just don't know.

3) A seizure from something / of some kind?

Calling the vet tomorrow will only lead to them telling me to bring him in for observation, most likely. Which, if he's not doing this again, then I'm not sure that would make much sense.

Do I do anything if I don't see any more signs? Problem is that I won't be around him for about 6 hours tomorrow, but I will be with him all day Tuesday. My thinking is that the vet will run a battery of tests and is unlikely to come up with answers. So, I'm leaning toward just letting it pass unless it happens again.
But, I will tell you - two hours later and my throat still hurts from my breathing so hard b/c I was so panicked.

Any opinions, please.............I just don't have a clue about what just happened.

Thanks,

Lynn

Lynn

Posted : 11/13/2006 8:11:26 AM

Update:

Well, he slept fine thru the night and pooped on our morning walk. HOWEVER, when he first woke up, he was restless again, walked around the bed a few times, then stood still and his body made those jerking motions again. He didn't move foward or to the side, just stayed still and jerked for about a minute. We then went for the morning walk and he was his usual self of pulling. He seems o.k. now, except he still seems a little legarthic. I'm still not sure what to do.

I had first considered a spider bite or something like that, but I think he slept smoothly thru the night, and I don't think he would react that way just upon arising. Still keeping an eye on him.

calliecritturs

Posted : 11/13/2006 8:33:56 AM

Sounds like he's seizing -- and PINE can trigger seizures ... even the scent of it, whether fresh pine or Pine Sol.

He's trying to come to you for comfort. If you will email me I'll send you a friend's contact info -- she rescues epi dogs and just knowing what to do DURING and before a seizure can often elminate or minimize it. I'm trying to get out to work so I can't stop to send it now but will tonight. If you have any valerian root give it to him -- calming him will help. (and no they don't have to be asleep to have a seizure -- usually NOT asleep is more common in fact)

jennie_c_d

Posted : 11/13/2006 3:33:43 PM

I agree that it sounds like he's seizing. He could be having tiny little unnoticeable seizures, with lots of pre and post ictal behavior, or he may be having seizures in a different room, or something like that. Some of Emma's seziures are hardly noticeable at all.

Lynn

Posted : 11/13/2006 6:18:02 PM

Jennie,

at the risk of sounding uppity -- I'm sure you know better about me ; ) -- if Emma has seziures that are hardly noticable, then how do you know she's having them?

Boy, hard to ask that question in a nice way...... I'm just trying to learn more so if you make me aware of something different, then maybe I will notice it with Midnight. Otherwise, I tend to be somewhat clueless.

I am about to pm Callie.

I spoke with my vet about the pine cone thing and she said that she didn't think it was related, that she couldn't find any evidence of toxicity. I mentioned what Callie said about smelling pine scented stuff, and the vet feels that is a different situation where the scent actually alters the brain chemicals.

I also mentioned the hypothyroidism, but we just had a test done, and while it wasn't great numbers, it wasn't very low either.

I did switch foods two weeks ago (off of that for now), and I did put on a candle and added peppermint escential oil last night. I seriously don't think that has to do with it, but I'm going to make notes of such things and if it does happen again, then maybe I can spot a trigger. He has been more "jumpy" lately.

Lynn

jennie_c_d

Posted : 11/13/2006 7:32:50 PM

at the risk of sounding uppity -- I'm sure you know better about me ; ) -- if Emma has seziures that are hardly noticable, then how do you know she's having them?

Sounds crazy, doesn't it?[

] I know by the pre ictal behavior. There is a breif pause. She might trip on something, stumble, she could be jumping off of furniture or onto furniture and "miss", she might air snap one time, or she could just pee on the floor. After that, it's almost like she's relieved. Then, the post ictal starts. She often doesn't recognize me, during this time, and WILL eat my face. It's loads of fun.

calliecritturs

Posted : 11/14/2006 12:14:52 AM

There's this whole other vocabulary you learn when dealing with seizure dogs -- like "pre-icktal" -- "aura" and other stuff. It's more like people seizures than most folks know -- reading up on them generally can really help.

Lynn

Posted : 11/14/2006 7:16:10 AM

Darn!, I just had to express my frustration that last night the seizure(s) must have lasted at least 30 minutes. It really felt more like 45 minutes. He would become very stiff when sitting up - I couldn't get hime to relax his front legs to lie down, body jerk when laying down, and several times I could not keep him next to me. I think there were spaces of time - a minute or so - when he would come out of it b/c he always came back to me, sometimes looking directly at me, as Callie said, for comfort. Other times he would look around like he didn't comprehend anything or where he was.

How can the episodes go from less than 5 minutes one night to such a long extended one the next night????

Thanks Callie and Jennie. I would have thought the dog wouldn't recognize someone during the "main event", not in a phase after. Thanks for the suggestion of reading up on human seizures so that I can understand this more.

What scares me the most (in my second day) is that last night's lasted so very, very long. Is that normal for some dogs?

Lynn

spiritdogs

Posted : 11/14/2006 7:29:04 AM

At the risk of sounding uppity, which I am not trying to be either...[

] This is not only for you, but for the lurkers, too.

If your dog is seizing, then a trip to the emergency vet might have resulted in them giving you a valium suppository in case of severe seizure at home, or other treatment for the dog. Epilepsy, or seizing from something else, can be dangerous, so IMO, a vet visit is in order especially for a dog that has not had an episode before.
Here's what happened with Dancer - even the vets couldn't tell, on initial exam, that what she had had was not a seizure or a stroke, but vestibular disease. When she first started collapsing, her eyes didn't show nystagmus - it became obvious later. If this were an old dog, I would be concerned with that as a differential diagnosis.
In any case, the causes for seizure can vary, and toxins are included. Also, some breeds are prone to late onset epilepsy, so what seemed to be a healthy puppy can start seizing at age 2, for example. If your dog is a purebred, and it turns out to be epilepsy, be sure to let your breeder know. A good vet should sort this one out.

brookcove

Posted : 11/14/2006 8:10:52 AM

Definitely go to the vet. I had a dog that started seizure activity very similiar to what you describe - very vague, almost unrecognizable. He had Ehrlichiosis.

I knew he was seizuring quite frequently because my Maggie is a seizure alert dog. This was how I learned this. She'd come and get me and I knew Bubo was in trouble. She could sense it coming on and we could make sure he was safe. The vet we were going to at the time was an idiot, frankly, and one time Bubo had a seizure RIGHT IN HIS OFFICE and he said he was "too busy" to look into it at the time, schedule an appointment for a couple months out, but probably he'd have to send him to a specialist and we'd have to spend thousands on MRI's, etc.

We switched vets and it just happened that she had recently returned from a conference where a specialist from NC State had spoken on the spread (then very new) of tick diseases and their incursion into NC.

Two days on doxycycline and poor Bubo, who had been sick for over a YEAR, was a different dog. And he never seized again, though his brain and kidneys were permanently damaged.

This isn't to say that it's a tick disease necessarily - the moral of this story is - don't wait, get a vet to give your dog the once-over and if you can get him to a vet DURING a seizure or right after, that's even better.

Lynn

Posted : 11/14/2006 8:12:32 AM

Anne (Spirit Dogs),

My dogs are not purebred, but are 1/2 brother and sister, The sister has hadother health issues from the beginning - him only recently. He has just turned 3 years old. I spoke with my vet and she said that actually ingesting a green pine cone would not set this off. In her opinion, the smell of pine can be a trigger b/c for some dogs it changes the brain chemicals. She is convinced that ingestion of a pine cone can not do that. I don't know for sure if this is a correct analysis. It could be a coincendence, but then again, it did happen only 1 week later. So...........

My vet said to run a senior panel, and if that didn't show anything and I wanted to pursue it, then I would have to go to a university b/c she didn't have a way to test further. At the time I spoke with her, yesterday, there had only been 2 short episodes, so I was taking a "wait and see" approach to see if it even continued. Which it obviously did.

So, thank you for the reminder that I need to see a vet. You are absolutely correct. My first step will be to call around locally and maybe there is a vet in town who deals with these issues. Talking this out with you has really helped - b/c before this post I hadn't thought of trying to find another local vet with more experience with this. DUH!! Put it down to lack of sleep, or what-ever, but the obvious escaped me!

chewbecca

Posted : 11/14/2006 8:20:30 AM

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

At the risk of sounding uppity, which I am not trying to be either...[] This is not only for you, but for the lurkers, too.

If your dog is seizing, then a trip to the emergency vet might have resulted in them giving you a valium suppository in case of severe seizure at home, or other treatment for the dog. Epilepsy, or seizing from something else, can be dangerous, so IMO, a vet visit is in order especially for a dog that has not had an episode before.
Here's what happened with Dancer - even the vets couldn't tell, on initial exam, that what she had had was not a seizure or a stroke, but vestibular disease. When she first started collapsing, her eyes didn't show nystagmus - it became obvious later. If this were an old dog, I would be concerned with that as a differential diagnosis.
In any case, the causes for seizure can vary, and toxins are included. Also, some breeds are prone to late onset epilepsy, so what seemed to be a healthy puppy can start seizing at age 2, for example. If your dog is a purebred, and it turns out to be epilepsy, be sure to let your breeder know. A good vet should sort this one out.

Spiritdogs-
I am quite interested in this news of vestibular disease in dogs (I didn't know it existed). I am currently going to school for Occupational Therapy and will be dealing with the vestibular, proprioceptive, and tactile systems by the time I actually graduate. I've done a lot of reading about it for now.
Anyway, I just looked up info on vestibular disease in dogs and it doesn't tell how, but it does say that idiopathic vestibular disease usually clears up within 72 hours or so, leaving maybe an ocassional head tilt behind.
I didn't know that there was vestibular disease in dogs.
From what I've read about it (and it was only one site of information), they say that if it is due to an inner ear infection that actually cleaning the dog's ears will worsen the condition.

I'm sorry, this is just fascinating to me.
I've had convos on here with Callie about dogs and O.T. and wondered about possible O.T. for dogs that possibly survived strokes but had difficulties functioning certain areas of their bodies. A lot of that would be neurological re-training though.
I just think about this every so often when I'm not bogged down with school work.

Lynn

Posted : 11/14/2006 8:23:12 AM

Brookcove,

I'm so sorry that his brain and organs were permently affected. How awful.

Yes, my boy has had ticks on him recently - as I said in my first post. I did a web search and couldn't find seizures as a sign for either this tick disease or the other one that starts with a "B".

Thanks for telling me about this. Seriously, after my research didn't show any indication of seizures being a sign, I then just dismissed it. So, I wouldn't have requested this blood test, especially after the vet just mentioned a senior panel and that's all. But, now, I will definately look into this as well and as soon as possilbe. I appreaciate the heads up on this possiblitiy. And, again, I'm really sorry that your Bubo suffered from this.

Lynn