Seizures...

There is a really good book called "for the love of a dog" author-Rose and it is exactly what you are going through. I think you should read it, it might help you through this. It is about a woman who's border collie goes through this and her experiences along with it. I won't ruin the book but I am reading it again for the second time this year...I love it! It is a really great book and I am sure you would enjoy it.

Our Saber has been on pheno since Oct. 2003. We have been able to reduce the dose to the point that it is at a non theraputic level. So the next step is to wean him off. I would advise that you are religious about having bloodwork done at least every 6 months not just checking pheno levels. Pheno is hard on the liver. Our Vet is amazed that Saber's liver checks out perfect. We attribute that to giving him Milk Thistle every day to support his liver.
I am always amazed that Vets are prescribing meds after just 1 or 2 seizures. Standard procedure is to journal the seizures and not medicate unless the seizures are less than 30 days apart.

Mickey's seizures occur about every 8-10 months.  He is in full seizure for about 2-3 minutes but unable to get up for 20-30 minutes after. He has locked muscles and no extremity movement throughout.   After the last one he didn't know where he was for almost an hour.  He is super clingy afterwards: wants to go outside but seems to not recognize the yard or where he is. 

I have made several decisions about this.  No medications, at least for now.  If I put him on the meds I can not give him his pills at the same time every day so would run the risk of making him much worse and possibly putting him into a full-blown seizure.  Right now we just deal with it as it comes. 

He has no triggers that I have found.  The last one started while he was sleeping.

elkhoundlover during the post ictal stage after the seizure the dog can have varying degrees of blindness.

sierra991, I'll take a gander at the book you mentioned. I'm very paranoid now about my dogs being under any kind of stress. They're all rescues with varying degrees of nervousness.

I'm thinking of asking my vet for Valuim to give to Ellie when we travel in the car (it makes her ultra nervous)

danehaven, what was your reason to take your dog off Pheno? I'm guessing it's because of liver health? I was afraid we'd have to ut Ellie on Pheno because of her cluster attack. But the doctor also mentioned it could be a rare case of imflamation on the brain. Either way, we would have to see a doggie neurologist.

I wonder what the general consensus is about when to medicate.

We have Saber's pheno dose down to a non theraputic level. Theraputic level is 15-40 ppm. His last 2 tests were 11.2ppm and 9ppm respectively. So the amount of pheno we are giving him isn't enough to do any good. His liver is fine.
The general consensus is to medicate if the seizures are happening more than one every 30 days or in the case of clusters.

I am new to this forum.......but I suggest ANY dog who is suffering from seizures have their COMPLETE thyroid panel checked.  Low Thyroid can cause seizures.  I have a 13 year old dog who 2 years ago started with seizures.  After convincing the vet to have his thyroid checked, and after his being on numerous medications........his thyroid came back extremely low.........he has been seizure free (knock on wood) since beginning his thyroid regime.  Please have the thryoid checked........it is a routine fundamental thing all Vets should do when a dog comes in with seizures.[]

My dog Frosty started having seizures about a year ago.   He had a few seizures that the vets did not seem concerned about.  However, he had several in one day.  This prompted them to put him on Phenobarbital.  This has worked great and he has not had another one sense.   He is now in a battle with cancer that I pray has as good of outcome. 
 
Thank you,
Duchpaws

Two years ago I heard a super good seminar on seizures at the U of Florida at Gainesville -- and one of the BIG HUGE suggestions was "If your dog seizes once a month or less, USE HOLISTIC METHODS!!" (caps are mine but she pounded on the podium when she said it!!),  This is the lady who is head of the neurosurgery department there at U of FL.  They teach acupuncture there!!
 
There are a lot of things that can help control seizures and even knowing how to soothe your dog thru the seizure can help enormously.  An 8 minute seizure is a VERY long seizure -- and typically the suggestion is anything over a 2 minute seizure they need to see a vet asap.
 
food can contribute to seizure activity and SO CAN things like what you clean your floor with, environmental factors (anything "pine" can be a big trigger -- from Pine Sol floor cleaner to pine pitch in your yard!!)
 
stress is a major major trigger of seizures -- so someone 'new' coming over, worry because your schedule has changed, new changes or pressure or even the excitement of a picnic or kids being home (or going back to) school -- ANY stress can trigger a seizure.
 
If you want a suggestion on a holistic vet, I've had good luck recommending people to the Chi Institute website (acupuncture can really really help seizure activity).  [linkhttp://www.chi-institute.com]http://www.chi-institute.com[/link]
 
 

I'm sorry to learn about Frosty.  What I can suggest is looking into the on-line sites regarding seizures.....and keep a log of anything that he does during the day. I keep a log on my dog so that I have record of what changes happen, etc.  Also.......do not think this silly BUT there is something connecting the Moon and the changes in the dog......and what I have noticed is that my dog used to have seizures during the new or full moon times.  Just watch and see as your dog gets along, if there is any change in it's personality during the new or full moon.  Don't laugh.......the dog still has it's instincts and this does happen.  I will keep Frosty in our doggie prayers.........many many Wooooos going out to you and Frosty.

Our Vet is amazed that Saber's liver checks out perfect. We attribute that to giving him Milk Thistle every day to support his liver.

Do you use "human" m/t? I'm interested in it for my Husky.

Jessie's been on pheno for nearly 6 years. The last panel the vet did  she was ok  but her liver enzymes were slightly elevated but well within normal range.

Jessie will give a soft whimper then lie down. Her eyes dilate, and her muscles "freeze"  and she just kinda zones out for a few minutes. Then she will start panting,  with more drool than normal and be really thirsty. She then gets kinda clingy and looks at me like she knows something happened but she doesn't know what. She doesn't have them often anymore, and they've never been more than that.

I have noticed that a lot of excitement  can occasionally trigger the seizures. Extreme stress also, especially from other hyper dogs, say at the local big box pet supply stores.

During a time when a 2nd dog was with us, she got so calm and content, she stopped having seizures, and actually came off the phenobarb. JoeJoe would come and get me if she went into a seizure, and he & I would stay with her until she snapped out of it. He was really like a big brother and looked after her, and they really loved each other. Then he died. We had another dog for a while, long story short, he now lives happily with someone better able to handle a hyper alpha dominant dog. But he stressed Jessie so badly she started having seizures again, and is back  on the phenobarb.

Not sure what the relationship is, but I know one of my symptoms of an oncoming migraine can be hyper motor mouth activities...then BAM it hits. I was mulling this over one day wondering if it might also indicate a possible oncoming seizure for Jessie , because she had ben unusually "up" a couple of days. Just moments after this thought struck me, she seized.  It was mild and short, but it gave me the opportunity to see her behaviour right before the seizure, as opposed to walking into a room and finding her mid-seizure.

another thing that concerns me is the vet insists on a dosage based on her weight. He says if she doesn't keep a certain level in her bloodstream then it won't do any good. Ok, I get that.
But I have to wonder, why give more than necessary, if a small dose controls the seizures why give more than you have to....kinda like taking 2 aspirin when 1 would do? I guess it's just different for doggies metabolisms.

Yes, regular human Milk Thistle.

man... I typed up this long post all about seizures and then my computer lost connection. gone now!!! Argh
 
I have seizures. Ask me what you want about them and I will try to do my best to answer plainly and honestly.
 
I can tell you there are all sorts of seizures, and not all are epilepsy. Each different type has a different sort of "seizure", aura and post-ictal feeling and look. I happen to have 6 different types of seizures. Been on all sorts of drugs. No two animals, people, or seizures are exactly the same, but many share commonalities.
 
Anyway, ask away if you think I might have something tooffer.
jane

Have you ever asked about Keppra?  It's a relatively new drug and has fewer side effects than the traditional Pheno or Dilantin.  I have various family members who have been on each of these medications, and Keppra has seemed to control the seizures best without compromising quality of life.  Some forgetfulness, but not nearly to the level of other drugs - also no risk of impact to the kidneys.  I actually read an article once a few years back that it was being tested on dogs as well, but haven't heard whether it is actually being offered as an option for dogs...it may be worth checking out.

Leslie - one of my cats, Iggy, began seizing last September.  He is an older cat and the effects were profoundly debilitating to him even though he only had 2 seizures and they were brief and 2 weeks apart. We were probably headed down the road toward pheno, too, when I found a Yahoo group for epi-cats.  They and the similarly organized canine group, have very large memberships making for a huge knowledge base.  You have gotten some excellent advice here, but you may find even more there.  The epi-cats group literally saved Iggy's life when I posted a description of his seizure activity and a member picked up on a particular aspect of his seizing and suggested I get his blood pressure checked.  Iggy's epilepsy turned out to be secondary to his hypertension and very luckily for us, that is relatively easily controled (no seizures since we began Norvasc and his CBC shows excellent levels on all fronts). 
 
Kota's seizing started more at an age typical for idiopathic epilepsy where a distinct primary condition attributable to the seizing is rarely found, but diet and other holistic or non western approaches (re Callie's post) have been very effective for a lot of members of the cat and dog list.  In addition to Milk Thistle, a lot of members talk about using Sam e in conjunction to pheno to help remediate some of the negative impacts of the drug.
 
I also know that Keppra (suggested by hop7176) has been used successfully and with less side effects then Pheno for some dogs (less success for cats).  And potassium bromide seems to work better than other alternatives for some dogs.
 
Anyway - my experience is limited, but if you'd like to tap into an even wider range of canine specific epi knowledge, [link>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/k9epilepsy/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/k9epilepsy/[/link][/size]
 
I hope you can quickly find the treatment/regime that works best for Kota - give him a belly rub from me.