I cannot believe this groomer! UPDATE

Liesje, I know you are confused. I don't understand why a show dog person would take their dogs to an average groomer either. lol That's why I was kinda wondering why when show was in the first line of the original poster's message, why the dog was sent to a groomer, but now I understand. XD

I don't think there's really anything else to say on this thread regarding the alledged groomer hating, if groomers are so confident and their clients like what they do, who cares what other people say. lol It's just that there are a lot of experiences like the OP's that make people wonder why other people take their dogs to big name company groomers, not to mention they probably don't even research the training and experience of said groomers before hand. I hope the dog's hair grows back as nice as it was before it was annihilated.

Colleen, I agree totally, what she did was wrong and that's basically all it boils down to. lol

kennel_keeper and grooming for chocolate, keep grooming, even though you're average groomers giving the average dog owner what they want, don't be discouraged. I'm sure if you wanted to cut show quality dogs, you could, but getting bent out of shape because artisan points out a valid point doesn't mean that she said you're all crap, nor does it mean that you have to show off your art.. lol

I'm not discouarged in the least, not really sure where you got that idea.  I am very proud of my abilities.   I found it offensive that artisan was be-littling pet groomers for the fact that we are not capable of producing show-quality cuts.  This is not our trade, so comparing the two things is simply ridiculous.  It's like saying "I really dislike Pizza Hut.  That restaurant does not produce authentic Italian food".  We provide wanted services/products.

Lordy. . how many times is someone going to misinterpret what I am saying?

Go back and read my last post. I never said that I hate groomers because they can't keep a dog in a show cut. I said that groomers like Petco/Petsmart are notorious for messing up PET haircuts. They messed up my PET PERSIANS haircut. They've messed up neighbors and friend's PET DOGS. They have on more than one occasion not listened to a pet owner's requests and the dogs have come back nearly bald. I would never expect a groomer to be able to be able to keep a Cocker in a show cut. That is why I said that she is better off learning to groom her dog herself. Are we done yet? Are we?

I say that because groomers who are artisans and craftsmen (or women) are few and far between. Your average grooming shop is going to be the kind where you can get a good shave down and bath. . and thats about all. The number of skilled groomers to unskilled is very low.

Okay, I was targeting this paragraph.   If you meant Petco/Petsmart operations, why didn't you say so in this message?  It was about as general as you can get.[8D]

Petco/Petsmart does not have the corner on grooming, anyway.  They are not your "average" grooming shop.  Go to petgroomer.com forums and see the thousnads of groomers that are self-employed, working for an independant shop, or a vet clinic/boarding kennel.

Thanks Jeannie! I have been doing this guy since he was 4 months old and he's a pretty easy groom for a cocker []
 
To address the groomers who don't clip to an owners request, unless you work with these people everyday, you can't make ANY judgements as to the authenticity of their "groomer horror stories". I wish I had a dime for every time a customer walks in and can't tell me how they want their dog clipped. They say things like, "short but not shaved" or "leave about an inch" (many don't have much of a concept of measurements) and a classic one is "clip her like a poodle". Well, if you are familiar with grooming, you will know that "clip like a poodle" can mean MANY different clips. There's a puppy clip (many versions of this one), a teddy bear, utility, sporting, yadda, yadda, yadda. The bad thing is, many of these clips can mean multiple things, so interpreting the wants of a client can be tough if not, impossible sometimes. A pet owner, as Stylist said, needs to do their research and be able to communicate their desires adequately to the groomer. If they can't seem to make the groomer understand, then they will utimately get what the groomer THOUGHT they wanted. After the dog has been groomed, they owner tells everyone how the groomer SCREWED up because they cut their dogs hair wrong and it's "nothing like I asked for". Thank GOD that hasn't happened to me YET! Also, another thing you would have to consider, pet owners are not always the best at maintaining a coat, but would not want anyone knowing that their little "fluffenbutt" was matted to the gills and HAD to be shaved, so they manufacture a story to suit their needs. This is how groomer-bashing gets started and can lead to someone having to lose their job OR go out of business. Is that fair, certainly not, but it can/does happen.
 
I'd also like to comment on the statement

"they just need to be brushed. No real skill involved there"

 
Actually, there IS a learning curve on brushing and without the proper instruction, dogs DO get matted, even with the best intended owners. While it may come easy to some, others just have the hardest time understanding the proper way to brush and all the different types of brushes to use for different coat types, etc. Brush before the bath, after the bath while wet, or after the bath dry, lol. There IS alot to learn if you plan on keeping your dog in coat. Some owners just can't understand WHY their dog is matted, but once you actually show them the proper way to brush and which equipment to use and WHEN to brush, it all becomes more clear and if they are dedicated, they can keep the dog in top shape. Unfortunately, alot of pet owners don't devote the time to keep the coated dog properly maintained.
 
So, as you can see, there are NUMEROUS reasons a person can get a "butchered" groom, from a scissor happy, average, groomer. The only difference between a good groomer and an average groomer is the clients they serve. Garbage in, garbage out!  OH, and knowing what questions to ask and HOW to ask them in order to understand the answers []
 
Oh, and BTW, I am NOT discouraged in the least about my grooming skills. I'm actually quite comfortable with where I'm at with my experience level and I love showing off my work [], but you don't have to look at it if it offends you.
 
 
I would also like to add, show-dog people are EXCELLENT at grooming their breed. They keep their dogs in impecable condition and it shows, but there are MANY skilled groomers that have trained under some of these people, so don't be so quick to judge. But, if you shove a cocker spaniel in front of a poodle handler/show-person and tell the to groom it to show standards, they might not know where to start. You have to understand that professional handlers normally handle a couple of breeds in their careers and get very good at the daily care of THOSE breeds, which includes the grooming. With so much work involved, it's not cost effective to PAY a groomer to do it, so they have learned from THEIR mentors early on.
 
Todays professional groomers are alot more serious about their careers than the groomers of old. They attend seminars, dog shows (comformation), and grooming shows. They invest in the best equipment and products, and there is even some legislation that is supporting vocational licensing pet groomers (similar to hair stylist) and the movement is MOSTLY supported by the professionals of today.
 
To the OP, I'm terrible sorry that your friend has had a bad experience, but I hope that she will read up on the breed and understand HOW to explain her wishes to whomever grooms her new fur-friend in the future. Surely, you'll be able to help her out!

I work with the groomer who did this dog every day.  I usually help her quite a bit with dogs even though I am technically not working in the grooming salon, but I am a back up for in there since I have experience.  She says the dog was matted completely, but I don't buy it.  I messed with the dog and checked her for matts two days before she was groomed.  There were none that would cause a shave down.  I still like the groomer, but I don't like her work and never have.  She rushes and is just careless.  Shes scared of dogs so that doesn't help either.  All of her shave downs look terrible and most of her regular grooms look kind of sad too.  She needs to learn to take more time and to be patient with dogs. 
She did learn her lesson.  She is now asking for more help when she needs it.  Shes taking her time and I think shes going to start communicating with the owners more, even though she hates calling them.  Hopefully, she can use this as a learning experience and not do it again. 
I will probably be grooming this dog from now on.  I told her it wouldn't be perfect probably, but that I would do my best.  I'll probably groom her as a show dog even though shes not showing. 

It is always easier to learn to groom your dog yourself. Less stressful for the dog and owner. I like to take my time and do it at home. No barking dogs, hair dryers etc. 

colleen, i used to work in the grooming department for petco. you hint at working for them, so im sure you know how almost impossible it is to get refunds for grooming (at least when i worked there it was). we did this so that people who got what they wanted, yet still didnt like it, still paid for the service. now if you work for them you can do this. in the office, they should keep records dating at least a month back of all the original grooming reciepts that customers take to the reg. (the white copy). now, unless the groomer wrote "1/8" all over, shave ears, legs, stomach. excess matting charge" this customer should get her money back. there should also be no abbreviations on the reciept at all. customers do not know what a number 7 blade is, but they know what an 1/8th of an inch is. even if they write a/o for all over, they would get a refund, b/c again we cannot assume a customer knows what a/o means. that little peice of paper saved our groomers from so much lost commission (b/c we were very good about detailing exactly what the customer wanted). if the cut does not coincide with what is on that paper, then a full refund should be given. if it means a lot to you, i would call you DM and explain the situation. honestly, the groomer either: a) mixed up the dogs like you said b) the dog might have been matted and she had to shave or c) just did the complete wrong thing. for any of those things, the groomer needs to be reprimanded. no way would any of the groomers at my salon gotten away with shaving a dog wthout calling the owner. we did have some mix up issues once or twice, and always offered full refund to both customers (who never took them, the hair cuts were never that drastic from each other). and i believe one time someone wrote down the wrong blade number, and the customer was given a full refund. the groomer either needs to be out of grooming for a period of time, spend a week being re-trained to follow procedure, and at the very least not get paid for the groom.

as far as what people say about groomers. well honestly, there are just as many shady private salons as there are petco/petsmart groomers. as far as training, this completely depends on the area. in my area, the supervisor of our training was terrible, but the one in the next zone was on the us groom team. so there are bad and good groomers everywhere, even petcos.

the key is asking questions, and also doing a little bit of your own research so you know if its bs or not. try and find out what cut you want, and if you can bring a picture. but also have realistic expectations, know that sometimes what you want may notb e possible for a number of reasons. but the groomer should always explain everything to you. if you arent clear on something ask. and if the groomer shows any hesitation to answer any questions, or doesnt know, well just walk out the door

ok well i posted my first message beforei read the whole second page.  colleen, honestly something needs to be done with this groomer. she was not properly trained. first thing i learned in grooming school (with the crappy teacher mind you) was not to bath a dog with matts in it, and to always put any dog with long hair on the table first just to make sure. she admited to you that she did this, and im getting the idea you didnt say anything to your manager about it. if a floor employee walked out on his shift without clocking out, would you just let it slide and not tell your manager? no you would tell him b/c that is a clear violation. well, you need to look at this the same way. there are basic procedures in grooming, and bathing while matts are is something that should never be done. i am also assuming the "1/8" all over, shave ears, shave belly" was not on the invoice, and that she never called the owner to tell her the change in haircut (you say she hates calling clients). you need to put your personal feelings about this person aside and do whats right. she obviously needs to be demoted to bather/brusher and reattend grooming school. i dont know how you can watch people spend money on haircuts that you know are subpar. honestly, if this groomer had been at my particular petco, she would have been fired.

The problem is that neither of our groomers have much experience.  We lost the one who did and thats good because she always showed up hungover or still drunk and was an awful groomer too.  When I worked in grooming at Petsmart, we were very detailed with instructions on the invoice because one person might check the dog in and another might groom.  Here, they get lazy.  When I check in a dog, I ask the owner about a million questions and then I write it down.  If there are lots of details, I will attach a note as well.  And, if its something out of the ordinary, I will find the groomer before they start and make sure they understand.  And, I don't even work in grooming! 
My manager is a complete idiot. She thinks its better to shave a dog first and then wash it.  She thinks washing all that hair wastes shampoo.  Yeah, well shaving a dirty dog wastes blades.  She knows nothing about grooming.  I was taught to be very exact and that a dog does not go out unless its perfect.  My manager gets mad because they aren't making enough money in grooming...well, get some GOOD groomers and they would make money! 
The customer DID get her money back.  I think I might suggest to the girl tomorrow to be more exact on her directions on the invoice so that she can avoid confusion in the future.  I'll suggest it in a friendly way because it is to protect her as much as it is to protect the dogs.  They usually just write the SKU and what that SKU is.  Like 80409(made up number) and "Groom" or "Shih Tzu Groom." 
This grooming salon is a joke and has been since we opened.  They go through about one bather a week...well, less than a week.  They can't get any and the one that started a couple days ago didn't show up today! 

You need to call your pet services manager for your district. I understand your manager knows nothing about grooming, ours didnt either. But your pet services manager will. There is no way i would have ever gotten away with writing "Shih tzu groom" on an invoice. It would be better if there was no groomers, than have 2 who obviously have no idea what they are doing. The one you are talking about was not trained right, and it is only a matter of time before a dog gets hurt. I know that i would feel horrible if that happened and i knew they werent qualified to even be grooming. You can also call the 800 number for complaints, which guarantees corporate would deal with it instead of your manager. You need to do something about this.

I just want to comment on the bathing with matts myth.  Two instances: 1) the dog is a pelt of matts that will come off in one solid piece, 2) the dog has several matts isolated in an area or all over. 

On the first dog, I'd bathe it first, shave it and then bathe it again.  Shaving a dog when it is slightly damp will make the hair stretch just the tiniest bit and you can get a longer blade under the matts, not much, but a little, possibly a 4 instead of a 7, a 5 instead of a 10, etc.  It also saves your blades, as Colleen mentioned, cause cutting clean hair is better than cutting dirty hair. 

On the second dog, I'd also bathe it first and condition the dog to help with minor dematting after the bath.  Mind you, at my salon I will NOT dematt a dog that has anything more than a couple matts on a well maintained dog.  It's not worth the pain and discomfort it causes the dog, or the guilt and stress it causes me.  Matts are made worse by static electricity and conditioning them will help rid the matt of that static.  It also helps smooth the hair down making the barbs that are part of the hair shaft less likely to stick together.  I then use a professional dryer to help split the matts apart as I brush.  Brushing out matts, IMO, is only made possibly by bathing first.  If I'm going to attempt brushing them out then hi ho, hi ho, it's into the tub we go!

stylin-i totally agree with what you are saying, in those instances.
however, we are talking about a groomer who: didnt feel a dog over for matts, put the dog into a kennel with a hose dryer, dog messed itself so it was bathed again and again put back into the kennel for drying. then the dog is surprisingly matted. without informing the owner, she shaved it. then lies about what happened and says "oh it was matted" (still doesnt explain why no phone call was given to the owner). then she admits to bathing with matts in (twice) and not checking te dog before hand for matting. original poster claims none of the matting on the dog was unbrushable, and she had in fact brushed some of it out days before the groom. so we are assuming this is a dog who was minimully (if that is even a word) matted, and made worse by a grooming error. youi also should realize that petco does things very differently from private groomers. there is no hand drying. shedless dogs get blown out with a hv dryer, but groomers who are trained there are trained to dry at least 50% of the way and then [put in a kennel and kennel dry. its just the way it works. they dont teach you how to hand dry poodles or bichons straight ( i didnt learn this until i stopped working there) the only ones i have seen who knew ho9w to groom "correctly" were not trained there. they do not teach wet shaving. they teach you to demat first, then bath, then haircut. this groomer screwed up

I completely agree that she screwed up.  I feel bad for her, cause I know her stomach must've been sick, mine would've been.  Anyway, just wanted to address the myth that people think matts get worse with water...yes they get worse if you don't brush them out while they're wet, but bathing them with matts isn't like mixing concrete, it doesn't get "set".  It wasn't even a response to your post so much as just in general people thinking this myth is true.  Bathing a matted dog and letting it sit to dry will most definately get those matts even harder to get out.  I know how petco works, I worked there for 2 years in the beginning of my grooming days, I was not trained there, but went into one as a new groomer.  There is a different mindset, and it's unfortunate IMO.  I guess that's what I was most hurt about in this whole topic.  Groomers know these types of places exist, we just want to be sure everyone knows that there are good responsible groomers out there who are anal perfectionists who only want the best for their clients and their reputation.  That statement does not exclude groomers at Petco/smart either.  That's all, we just want to avoid generalization as does anyone who's covered by blanket statements. 

I found it fascinating (after all the negative comments about Petco/Petsmart groomers), I happened to be in a PetSmart yesterday, and watched a groomer compentently hand-scissor an entire standard Poodle.  And it looked very nice, IMO[]