I cannot believe this groomer! UPDATE

A normal cocker cut here has a skirt.  Thats how they all get done unless specified and there is an extra charge for a complete shave down, which is specified on the invoice.  No extra charge, no SAO specified.  The groomer said she told the owner she might have to shave the belly because of a few matts but would try to save the legs.  The matts on the legs were not bad when I messed with her three days ago.  I showed them how to brush and brushed some of the matts out.  They were not tight at all.  Her ears had NO matts.  OK, I might have missed belly matts, but still you can get the belly without shaving the legs and ears.  The sides of the skirt were not matted at all.  To top it all off, the shave was AWFUL!  There were peices of hair left everywhere, the feet were all scraggly, nails hadn't been clipped. 
Even if she was matted really badly, I believe that if there is going to be any extreme deviation from the clip expected should be confirmed with the owner.  I don't think she was clear enough because it was obvious the owner did not expect a total shave down. She tried to say the dog moved all over the table.  I know this dog and she is very well trained to stay still on the table even without restraint.  All of my handler's dogs are trained that way. 
My theory is that she messed up and cut too much so she shaved it all and said she had to.  She had another cocker that day who was an SAO and she may have mixed them up.

A normal cocker cut here has a skirt. Thats how they all get done unless specified and there is an extra charge for a complete shave down, which is specified on the invoice.

Lucky you.  Cockers/Springers are pretty darn popular in my area, and about 90% are completely shaved down.  It's no fun for me, but it's what the owners want.[8D]
 

I would say that maybe 1 out of 10 get a shave down.  That doesn't include the occasional one that comes in a matted rug from a rescue situation.  

Lucky you. Cockers/Springers are pretty darn popular in my area, and about 90% are completely shaved down. It's no fun for me, but it's what the owners want.

Same for me.  I had friends w/ Cockers growing up and the in-laws have a Cocker, but I'd never seen a skirted Cocker until a dog show.  Tzus also get shaved here, as do Bichons, Poodles...basically any small-medium companion dog or family pet that has hair constantly growing gets shaved every few months.  Our neighbor's Tzu got shaved a lot b/c she would get hot spots and had a little tumor under her skin.  Between shaves I would comb her out to keep her from getting matted.

ORIGINAL: iiartisanii

Precisely why people should learn to groom a dog if they intend to keep it in full coat. Groomers are by and large scissor-happy people and very rarely do you find one that knows how to do a show cut AND a pet cut. Unfortunately I've heard more than one of these types of stories. . most notably when a Poodle person left their show dog at the groomer for a Puppy-to-Continental and it came back looking like. . well. . a pet at the hands of an unskilled assistant. Petco and Petsmarts are notorious for screwing up haircuts so your best shot is to steer very.. . very. . clear.

 
OK, as a groomer, I take offense at this statement and can't understand why someone would want to lump a group of people into such a nasty catagory.
I (as well as MANY other groomers I know) take GREAT pride in their work and would be appauled at being called scissor-happy. This statement just goes to prove how most of JQP view groomers, as incompetant, unskilled, and unethical. Are their groomers out there that are less skilled than others? Sure there are and there are also those who are just trying to do a job for a paycheck, but there are MANY PROFESSIONALS out there that do a wonderful job, that while not SHOW-QUALITY grooms, do represent what the breed is supposed to look like, but done as a pet trim.
 
Here's a couple of examples of some of my pet-trims. I've got alot more if you need more proof that there are skilled CRAFTSMAN and ARTISANS in the grooming field.

I say that because groomers who are artisans and craftsmen (or women) are few and far between. Your average grooming shop is going to be the kind where you can get a good shave down and bath. . and thats about all. The number of skilled groomers to unskilled is very low. I am aware that there are grooming conventions and grooming competitions where truly skilled groomers get together and show off QUALITY work, but this is the exception, not the rule. If you take your coated dog to a Petsmart or Petco or any other "chop shop" like that, their first reaction is to pull out the scissors or clippers and start hacking away. I'm sorry if I have offended you but I have much experience with groomers and grooming and have taken a dislike to the "average" groomer. 

I say that because groomers who are artisans and craftsmen (or women) are few and far between. Your average grooming shop is going to be the kind where you can get a good shave down and bath. . and thats about all. The number of skilled groomers to unskilled is very low. I am aware that there are grooming conventions and grooming competitions where truly skilled groomers get together and show off QUALITY work, but this is the exception, not the rule. If you take your coated dog to a Petsmart or Petco or any other "chop shop" like that, their first reaction is to pull out the scissors or clippers and start hacking away. I'm sorry if I have offended you but I have much experience with groomers and grooming and have taken a dislike to the "average" groomer.

How very offensive and un-true.  Just because people want shave-downs, doesn't make MOST groomers butchers.  You exaggerate greatly.

Two very recent (one yesterday, one 2 wks. ago) "chop-shop" products of mine:

Why dislike the average groomer because they give the average pet owner what they want?  Most pet owners don't care about coat or conformation, they just want their pet to be comfortable and healthy (no risk of matting).  Show coats have their place, of course, but the average groomer at Petsmart and Petco gives most companion dogs what the owners want.

Well, I don't think she was trying to be offensive, but I can tell you guys are a little peeved. lol People can usually find something to get offensive about, at any rate.

She's just stating that in the world of showing dogs and having to keep dogs in top coat quality and form, you must do the grooming yourself if you want it done right. I think it's a hoot that the original poster is surprised that what happened did as well. My grandma had a pet quality Am Cocker that was shaved down and bathed every year in the spring. I also don't understand why if the dog wasn't right for show, how it's such a big deal. Hair grows and it's not like she needs her coat to be run around a ring. Sure it was probably gorgeous, but it's not the end of the world and had the dog been still deemed show quality, that's when I would have come unhinged, but then again, I would have never taken my show quality dog to a place like that for any type of grooming. lol! My mutts go to Petsmart for baths and there has never been a problem, then again, they're not really "grooming" them so, yeah.

The point is, is that show people should keep their dogs away from Petco and Petsmart and anyone else who doesn't know the basics at least of their breed's coat needs. That's basically what artisan was saying, not that groomers who cut pet quality dogs are less than intelligent about their profession. It's just that your general groomer at such places as big company petstores probably are not putting their efforts into learning show cuts, they are, indeed, giving the average owner what they want. It's not about liking or disliking any groomer, it's about what is required for the dog to come out like to please the owner and what groomer fits that description for the individual. The vet place where I worked had a groomer there that, ironically, had shown Am Cockers for about 20 years and did multiple breeds that she groomed. I don't think anyone ever came in for a show quality cut because who would expect a groomer in that set up to know about that, not unless they were a personal friend of hers.

kennel_keeper and grooming for chocolate, keep grooming, even though you're average groomers giving the average dog owner what they want, don't be discouraged. I'm sure if you wanted to cut show quality dogs, you could, but getting bent out of shape because artisan points out a valid point doesn't mean that she said you're all crap, nor does it mean that you have to show off your art.. lol

ORIGINAL: everwood

Well, I don't think she was trying to be offensive, but I can tell you guys are a little peeved. lol People can usually find something to get offensive about, at any rate.

She's just stating that in the world of showing dogs and having to keep dogs in top coat quality and form, you must do the grooming yourself if you want it done right. I think it's a hoot that the original poster is surprised that what happened did as well. My grandma had a pet quality Am Cocker that was shaved down and bathed every year in the spring. I also don't understand why if the dog wasn't right for show, how it's such a big deal. Hair grows and it's not like she needs her coat to be run around a ring. Sure it was probably gorgeous, but it's not the end of the world and had the dog been still deemed show quality, that's when I would have come unhinged, but then again, I would have never taken my show quality dog to a place like that for any type of grooming. lol! My mutts go to Petsmart for baths and there has never been a problem, then again, they're not really "grooming" them so, yeah.

The point is, is that show people should keep their dogs away from Petco and Petsmart and anyone else who doesn't know the basics at least of their breed's coat needs. That's basically what artisan was saying, not that groomers who cut pet quality dogs are less than intelligent about their profession. It's just that your general groomer at such places as big company petstores probably are not putting their efforts into learning show cuts, they are, indeed, giving the average owner what they want. It's not about liking or disliking any groomer, it's about what is required for the dog to come out like to please the owner and what groomer fits that description for the individual. The vet place where I worked had a groomer there that, ironically, had shown Am Cockers for about 20 years and did multiple breeds that she groomed. I don't think anyone ever came in for a show quality cut because who would expect a groomer in that set up to know about that, not unless they were a personal friend of hers.

kennel_keeper and grooming for chocolate, keep grooming, even though you're average groomers giving the average dog owner what they want, don't be discouraged. I'm sure if you wanted to cut show quality dogs, you could, but getting bent out of shape because artisan points out a valid point doesn't mean that she said you're all crap, nor does it mean that you have to show off your art.. lol

I am very familiar with the world of show grooming as well as pet grooming.  I show Parsons and do my own grooming.  This was not about the fact that she ruined a "show cut" but that was describing the conditon her coat was in.  Skirt almost to the floor.  Even if it were a pet cut with a skirt, the fact that she chopped it off was wrong.  If this dog were actually showing, no, she would not have gone to a groomer.  But no matter the cut, pet or show, if someone messes it up that bad, its unacceptable.  When I felt her a few days ago, I could have easily brushed the matts out with a little work.  When I went to talk to the groomer, I found out why they couldn't be brushed out, she washed the dog TWICE first!  She washed her, put her in the dryer then she messed her crate, so she had to wash again.  She did not check for matts first so the matts got set in.  She has learned that she is always going to check a dog really well for matts before washing(which is how I was taught) and if she has to do a complete shave down when not specified, she is going to call the owner first.  So, hopefully, she learned her lesson and can move on.
Also, again, its not the fact that she ruined a show cut, but what if you had long beautiful hair that you took pride in and went to the stylist and said "I would like my hair trimmed" and they shaved your head?  You probably wouldn't be very happy.  It took over a year to get this coat on the dog and its going to take that long again.

Sometimes I want to own the drop-coated breeds (along with St. Poodles and Bichons), just so I can keep them in full coat, and run a comb through them every spare minute. I'm just a bit obsessive about stuff like that.

Wouldn't that be fun? All the #7 shavedowns on little, tiny Poodles with gorgeous coats are *killing* me. I want a tiny Poodle, so I can keep it in a 0 comb or longer.

...the shave was AWFUL! There were peices of hair left everywhere, the feet were all scraggly, nails hadn't been clipped.

See, that's what I see as a problem. Anybody that comes in not saying what they want is likely to get something they don't want. An unfinished groom is not ever ok, though.

Kennel Keeper, I *love* that Cocker! His legs are sooo pretty, in that length! He's got beautiful feets. I love Cocker feets.

I'm also offended at the "average groomer" and "Petsmart groomer" insults, because that's what they are. As a groomer at Petsmart, I go to dog shows, routinely. I know the correct grooming procedure for each breed, and I *never* put my hands on a show quality coat in the grooming salon. NEVER! I shave my own terrier down, because she's a pet. Pet dogs have different needs, and pet owners have different needs. I am not at all "scissor happy". I *love* grooming dogs in pretty, pet quality cuts. I wish I could do more full coated Poodles, Shih Tzus, and Westies. They're a ton of fun, and much more rewarding than a 7 shavedown.

Hello, I'm new here, joined this forum just so I could post on this topic.  I am a self employed pet stylist...aka: dog groomer.  I LOVE what I do, and I put every ounce of my energy into putting out the best looking dogs in town.  EVERY dog is a show dog, as soon as they walk out my doors, they're being shown off!  I do pet trims, show trims, and show-quality pet trims.  I own a Std Poodle, and an Am. Cocker (as well as an adorable mixed breed) both of which I compete in grooming competitions with several times a year. 
 
I have several comments regarding previous posters.  As far as not trying to be offensive in the original post, I'm sure that was the intent, but the harsh comments were taken to heart when we as pet stylists try to do our best and we're treated with such disregard when we make a mistake.  Granted, this was a major mistake, and should be handled accordingly, but please understand that people have to start somewhere and she may not have known better so be considerate of her feelings. 
 
Many groomers are concerned with the industry image as a whole, and are doing their best to fight that tooth and nail.   As a consumer or potential client, one needs to research what type of style they want for their pet, and then find an appropriate salon or shop.  Then, when you find one that fits your needs, be sure to be as specific as humanly and politely as possible to get exactly what you want across to the groomer.  In turn, the groomer should be asking you just as many questions to find out what you want.  That's a sign of a good groomer.  Not saying this poor groomer is not good, or will not some day BE good, but he/she may just be inexperienced, like I said, you've got to start somewhere. 
 
So as a concerned owner, make sure you do your research as to what type of style you want for your pet, and then find a reputable groomer that will fit you both.  Then, and MOST importantly, get your dog groomed regularly so you can keep it looking the way you want.  Once or twice a year and you should expect a shaved dog.  Once a month is more what you want if you want the dog to have some sort of hairdo. 
 
To the original poster: DO NOT USE THINNING SHEARS ON A FULL COATED COCKER!!!!!!  Just a word of warning, cause you will be dematting that dog literally every other day if you do that.  I know cause I was given my cocker and the woman who had him before me did that.  Yes, it's a quick fix, but it will RUIN, I repeat RUIN, his coat and all your hard work in the end.  If he was matted, fine, it's over now, but let it grow in, and card that coat to death and you'll get a nice flat laying coat.  If you want more tips, I'd be happy to share, please just let me know, but make SURE you don't use those thinners on that coat, it'll be night of the living dead, lol. 
 
Happy hunting for your best friend's new best friend: a professional pet stylist with your pet's best in mind.  We're out there, you just have to want to find us. 
 
Ps. I consider a "cocker cut" to have a skirt and scissored legs.  Yes it's true many get shaved down, but a "cocker cut" has a skirt and full legs.

It's not about liking or disliking any groomer, it's about what is required for the dog to come out like to please the owner and what groomer fits that description for the individual.

Exactly, so we are confused as to why she would "dislike the average groomer."  Why would a person who is showing dogs even go to an average groomer?

I've worked for two. [] One as a receptionist and one as an assistant/bather. I don't take my own dogs to a groomer because there is no need.. they just need to be brushed. No real skill involved there. However I have lots of friends and neighbors who have pet dogs and I've known many of them have had bad experiences with groomers not listening to their requests and they've picked up many a dog that was trimmed beyond recognition. My own Persian cat was taken into Petco for a sanitary trim and came out looking more like a lion than a cat.

 I'm not saying that all groomers are bad and that I hate groomers, all I'm saying is that at the big chain stores like Petco and Petsmart their groomers are not trained thoroughly in the Petco/Petsmart grooming school and they, moreso than other groomers, tend to butcher haircuts more often. I understand that their are mom and pop grooming shops that do a great job on haircuts, however these places do not represent, in my opinion, the average job I see done on dogs because the chain places have cornered the market. I think this thread has gotten way out of hand so that is all I am going to say on the subject unless of course I am attacked further for my opinions and beliefs. 

But if what you consider a "butcher" is perfectly acceptable for the dog's owner, why is it a problem?  I think the average dog owner doesn't even have a clue what their dog breed's coat is supposed to look like when cut for show.  I think if I told MIL her dog is suppose to have a skirt, she would laugh at me and say who cares.