my poor pomeranians matts!!

Once again I must say that the only risk to having your dog shaved down (Any Breed) is over heating and sunburn. Common sense can prevent both of these risks. Keep your dog primarily as an indoor dog until enough of the coat grows back for some protection from the heat, and when it must be outside make sure it has plenty of shade. The hair WILL grow back normally, hair is hair you could use a bic razor on the dog and unless you scrape down to the follical the hair will grow back ok. Not that I advocate this mehtod. If the dog is really badly matted it will probably be clipped with a 7f blade and possibly a 10 blade.As I have stated before I have been grooming for 42 years as of Jan 07 and cannot count how many dogs I have shaved down in that time.I have shaved Chows. German Shepherds, Lab. Goldens. Bassets. Pugs, Huskys. I have turned longhaired Chiuahuas into smoothe coats. I must admit that I would rather not shave these breeds, they definatly look better with coats but it does them no harm if the owners follow common sense .

[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]

Not to be inflammatory,but i have always been told that a sign of a good groomer is one who doesnt shave/clip down everything that is placed infront of her within an inch of it's life.Groomers or 'butchers' as i have heard them be described  are a dime a dozen and will do whatever the client asks whether it's for the good of the dog or not.

A sign of a good groomer imo,is one who will take the time to show the client how to properly maintain the dog inbetween visits,and if the owner positively wants their dogs coat shorter the groomer will scissor cut it,but never clip or shave.The groomer will also only ever accept the same badly matted dog back ONCE,if the owner comes back 6mths later after the groomer has taken a lot of time in showing them how to maintain the dogs coat,not to mention the hours spent cleaning it up, and the dog is in the same matted state,the groomer will send them on their way.There is a name for these types of owners given by groomers,but i cant remember it..The ones who bring their dogs in once a year at summer to be completely shaved down because they've been neglected all year long .[&o] Ofcourse if a dog is so severly matted that there is NO other choice but to shave it down,then for the dogs sake this must be done,but i would make sure to charge the owner plenty for their neglect if i was a groomer [:@]

Ofcourse all the above is about true longhaired breeds,i really dont want to get into the owners who get dogs like Golden retrievers,cavaliers,westies,jack russells etc etc shaved down,i mean easy to maintain dogs that should never see a clipper!

A true,caring groomer is a rare gem,anyone can shave down a dogs coat and call themselves a groomer! [&:]

Edie, you do not need to scissor to maintain a long length.  A #3 blade leaves 1/2", and there are many attachment combs that go a great deal longer.  Do you even know how long it takes to hand scissor a toy poodle?  Way too long for the average grooming shop.  Hand-scissoring heads/legs is all I ever do.
 
I think the term you are looking for is OAY (once a year).  These dogs are disgusting to say the least.  I never refuse them, though.  Someone needs to do them.  Either I send them to the vet (who never has time, and will most likely send them back to me), or send them to the other groomer, who is supposedly a "butcher" like you speak of.  Or so her former clients tell me...[8D]

Edie, 
It's easy to make statements like those you have made and while I don't feel it's ideal to shave ANY dog, it is a reality in grooming.
I PREFER to "style", but practicality rules the day for most owners. They want an easy to maintain coat, they want to extend the time between grooms, and don't want to spend as much throughout they year. Some owners have their dogs (like labs, goldens, etc) because they have found they have developed allergies to the hair/dander and don't want to give up their pets. Others shave because the shedding is so bad, while others shave to keep their pets comfortable because they swim alot and are prone to infections. There are just as many reasons for clipping down these breeds, as there are dog breeds. Some even have skin conditions that require close monitoring and clipping them short helps the owners look after the condition.
I don't think you can generalize this situation by saying that GOOD groomers won't shave down dogs like this, but there are some that don't know how to do anything else.
I have several clients that neglect their dogs grooming needs and it always gets under my skin to continuously see these poor dogs in such shape, but I could never refuse service to them. I do it for the dogs, NOT the owners and I know I'll do a proper job because I CARE about their welfare. Do I want to report the owners for neglect, well, yes there are times I would love to make that call. There have been times when I wanted to refuse to give the dog back to the owner due to the condition the dog was in and I cry about it afterwards. It's upsetting to say the least, but we have to be professionals, advise the clients of the proper care of their dog, make recommendations on grooming at home and a schedule for professional grooming appointments, as well as, letting clients know if we have found any condition that may require a vet's care. It's unbelievable how many owners look at you with that blank stare when you are going over the details of their dogs visit, making recommendations, and asking them to schedule their next appointment. I've been trying to show people how to brush and they look at me like I had 3 heads, 6 eyes, and 10 arms. It goes in one ear and out the other with some people and they just will never "get it". I've come to believe that there are a lot of people that don't think of a dog the way I do and there is no way I can educate them to feel otherwise. But, again, I am NOT doing this for the dogs owner, but for the DOG! I keep pushing (albeit, gently) for these owners to take better care of their pets, feeding a good food, grooming on a regular basis, giving them plenty of exercise, and getting proper vet care.
 
GOOD groomers are not necessarily the ones who do the best styles, but the ones who put the dogs welfare about all else.

i have said many times to anyone who asks about my job that i do it for the dogs, like kennel keeper is saying. i just veiw it a little differently. if someone comes to me with a normal coated husky with no health problems and asks me to shave it, i will do everything i can to convince them not to. normally owners have no idea of what can happen to their dog if it is shaved, so they normally will take me very seriously when i tell them what can happen (sunburn, irregular regrowth, overheating). i think that most people get dogs, and dont really know what they are getting themselves into, and have next to zero knowledge on their dog, be it their coat, or the upkeep it requires. i am here to tell them how to handle it. i am not here to do whatever an owner wants, because most owners have no clue of what is good for their dog. if an owner does not agree with me, then i do not have to do their dog. there are many grooming shops who wil do anything the owner wants (and this also includes brushing out dogs who should be shaved).
 
its an iffy business, you see dogs everyday that should be taken away from their owners. its very hard when you are an animal lover. i have made it a little better for myself by picking and choosing who my clients are. if someone gets an attitude with me because i wont brush out matts that shouldnt be brushed, then i really dont want that person as a client. i dont do anything that makes me uncomfortable, and try to avoid shaving dogs with undercoat, because people who didnt care enough to maintain that coat, are more than likely not going to make sure the dog isnt too hot or too cool, which can lead to health risks, and even death. i do not want that on my shoulders.

A sign of a good groomer imo,is one who will take the time to show the client how to properly maintain the dog inbetween visits,and if the owner positively wants their dogs coat shorter the groomer will scissor cut it,but never clip or shave.The groomer will also only ever accept the same badly matted dog back ONCE,if the owner comes back 6mths later after the groomer has taken a lot of time in showing them how to maintain the dogs coat,not to mention the hours spent cleaning it up, and the dog is in the same matted state,the groomer will send them on their way.

The thing about that, Edie, is that grooming is a business, and we have to make money, too.  Also, it's *much* nicer to shave a dog than demat it, and most folks don't *care* how to properly maintain a coat. I will not demat more than a few spots, on any dog. I refuse. I'd rather shave them than make their skin sore for days.

In my own defense I must restate that I would rather not shave these breeds of dogs. I am all breed groomer and have excelent scissoring skills. However bottom line, I am a groomer to make a living and if the owner is adament about shaving I will do it. I feel that I have the knowledge to do a decent job and not injure the animal., Also how many of these customers and going to be willing to pay the price for a scissor cut, most won't. I don't think it is fair to say that most groomers don't care.I always do my best to educate all the customers I work with but if they insist on shaving their dog, they will go somewhere esle to have it done if I don't it. I am a groomer by trade, that is how a make a living and pay my bills. But I will not do anything to harm a dog for any amount of money.
 

gelana-you are right, if you dont do these dogs, they will go somewhere else and have it done. at this time in my life, however, i am perfectly happy with someone else getting that business. i would rather make a business built around the kind of grooming i want to do. there are so many dogs and pets out there, i feel like i can do this and still make a living out of it. at petco, i got to pick and choose what i wanted to do, and no ne could force me to do anything to a dog that i didnt want to. my next job was a very busy private salon.. they would hand me a completely matted dog and say demat it (after the dog had had a bath with the matts in), whether i felt it was right or not.

You are lucky that you can choose what you will do. I cannot, I am not the boss where I work. Also we have so many shave down requests ( I live in Arizona) that it would serioulsy impact out business if we refused to do these dogs. You can't always pick and choose what you do, if I could I would do poodles all day, assuming I could charge enough.
 
 
 

Word of mouth is one of the best business tools.People will drive for miles and pay that little extra for a competent groomer.Like i said,there are "shaving salons" on just about every corner.

Word of mouth is one of the best business tools.People will drive for miles and pay that little extra for a competent groomer.

You've never been to Wisconsin, have you?

Congrats on having your own business...and choosing what you will and won't do.  I certainly would fear that some other groomer could do damage to a badly matted dog. 

You've never been to Wisconsin, have you?

Georgia, either. People whine about paying $15 to have nails trimmed and filed. Most folks are not near willing to pay for a scissor cut, and I'm not willing to wear my hands out that fast, either. Skimming and clipper combs are your friend! Scissoring is for finishing, for pet dogs, and for groomers who have to do more than a couple of dogs a day, to make a living.

People whine about paying $15 to have nails trimmed and filed

Well then people here in WI would have a crap fit, because the normal charge here for having nails done here is $7-9 and the grooming shops average charging $8!  Unless you go to the vet, it usually doesn't cross into double digits!