When will I know? / False Hope?

    • Puppy

    When will I know? / False Hope?

    My Maggie is a 14 yr old chiwauwau/dachsund mix.  On Wed Oct 2, 2013 we took her to the vet.  She seems to lack energy but the main concern was her constantly wanting to eat dirt.  Her PCV was 19% and vet gave some Iron Supplement/Pepto/Dewormer and told us to come back Saturday.  I ended up coming back on Fri Oct 4 since she hadn't improved.  Her PCV was 14% and we went straight to see a specialist.  She had a blood transfusion and spent the night in the hospital. IMHA is the diagnosis, at the bone marrow level, she is not regenerating.  Her liver/kidney function is in the normal range.  The autoagglutination test was negative. She has pale gums/tongue but no yellowing of the eyes/mucus membranes. We picked her up Saturday Morning (23% PCV) and started her on dexamethasone and cyclosporine, 2 antibiotics, and something for ulcers.  She was still weak but walking around and wagging her tail a bit.  Last night, day 2 on meds, she seemed extremely lethargic and I thought it was a turn for the worst, however, around 3am she decided to jump off the couch and run up the stairs and down the stairs, scratch on the door to go outside, eat everything in site and she kept this up all night long.  She paced around all night and this morning at 9am was acting like her old self.  She has not had any vomiting from the meds.  Her poop was orangish yesterday but is back to brown today. She goes back to the vet in 2 days for her follow up.  Is this energy just part of this rollercoaster disease? or could she actually be getting better? When will I know that she has beat this? When will I know that she's not going to die before the morning? When can I exhale?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Debbie -- there is a massive thread on here for you "AIHA or IMHA" - This is the last page as of today:  community.dog.com/.../90432.aspx

    This is the very first page -- and in that first post there is an index that should help you with some of what you're going through.:

    community.dog.com/.../90432.aspx

    My email is callieatcritturs@yahoo.com -- and I can help you a lot.

    IMHA is difficult -- I've got tons of experience with "sick dogs" generally and my husband and I have never encountered anything quite like IMHA.  You're absolutely right -- you worry yourself through the first few weeks.

    If the vet hasn't really explained it (particularly in words you can understand??) -- what happens is the immune system for some reason gets confused -- and that's honestly about as good a word as any.

    "Confused" because it has forgotten how to function normally.  The immune system should turn on in response to a threat ... and then, when that threat is dealt with ... the immune system should turn OFF.  Relax ... Stop ...

    But it doesn't -- it literally trolls the body looking for things to kill.  And along the line it crosses a very very critical line -- it doesn't just kill real threats ... it begins to kill it's own cells.  In the case of IMHA it kills the red blood cells.

    It feels like it came on so fast -- but usually it actually doesn't.  Often the final straw is vaccines -- which may have been given 2-3 months ago -- but it takes a couple of months for the body t really fully form antibodies in response to a vaccine ... but then ... the immune system ... when it can't find anything else  .. it sees those new antibodies ... and somehow those antibodies (which **do** have DNA from the disease it was formed to combat) look too much like disease cells and the body starts killing those.

    Well antibodies are also baby red blood cells .. so ... then the body starts killing regularl baby red blood cells (because they are a lot like antibodies) ... and from there it also kills adult red blood cells.  One piece at a time.

    When they say "not regenerating" what they really mean is -- the body is probably making *Lots* of baby red blood cells (called "reticulocytes";) BUT the body is killing them while they are still in the bone marrow ... before the blood is "born" into the blood vessels.

    So it usually isn't that blood isn't being made -- it's that what is being made is killed before it makes it to the bloodstream.

    So the initial answer is -- you can't really relax until she's stable.  And that is a tricky word because it can mean different things during the course of this.

    Right now -- "stable" means that you've got the immune system to **stop** killing the blood and some of the new reticulocytes begin making it into the bloodstream.  So the PCV (packed cell volume) or hematacrit [PCV and the 'crit are measiuring the same thing -- but the PCV is a hand-done value and a hematacrit is machine done - usually as part of a CBC or "complete blood count";)

    See -- ti's like you need a medical dictionary next to you!

    And along with all of this, the meds typically make them quite sick -- so it's a delicate dance of giving meds and keeping them eating.

    1.  Don't give her medicine in her food.  Just absolutely positively do *not* do that.  You can use something like yogurt, liverwurst, ricotta cheese, babyfood meat - and put meds in those (or a spoon or a lump of it in your hand).  Don't try to "hide" it -- she **will** smell it.  Show there that it's there but she *must* take it because that's how you get better.

    Putting meds in their food may work for a few days.  But then, ***trust me*** suddenly they will stop eating.

    Don't do it.  Do the meds before a meal -- in something (and honestly try liverwurst -- it is yummy to them and it's high in iron as well).  Then feed after.

    2.  Keep this dog eating.  Don't worry about gaining weight -- it takes so much energy to get well from this many lose weight.  Usually the pred eventually makes them hungry -- and they may eat you out of house and home.  Don't worry about that -- if that happens it is a blessing!!

    3.  Let her sleep.  Encourage her to sleep.

    OK -- now I'm going to tell you the truth about IMHA

    It's a nasty, awful disease.  But ... is it that .. a disease.  Right now there is still a high mortality rate -- but MANY dogs live thru this.  Many *more* live now than did 6 1/2 years ago when my Billy had it.

    This is not permanent.  The can get better.  In fact they can return to a good, healthy life.  What you are seeing is a sick dog.  Today this dog is very, very sick.  But you get better.

    My point is this -- you will hear people say "why do you put her throught his" -- and there **IS** an answer to that.

    You go **through** something to get to the other side.  You go through "sick" to get "well".

    But you must be patient.  This takes a long, long time -- many months.  Even the easiest cases take six months or better to get them off the drugs.  My Billy took 18 months to get off ALL the drugs.

    And my Billy had a horrific case of IMHA.  He had six transfusions the first month. SIX.  AT the time he was the only buffy cocker I could find anywhere who had survived.

    But not only did he survive -- but his 3 years after IMHA were the BEST years of his life.  He had a happy, fun life after IMHA (and he had fun DURING IMHA too!!)

    My point is -- your dog is not going to be sick like this forever -- so be patient.  You have a lot of work at first to cope with all the meds and the feedings, and just plain care for a very sick dog.

    You will find support on the thread (and I'm going to ask the powers that be to merge this into the AIHA or IMHA thread -- it will help you to read what others have done.  Do not try to read it all in a day..  It's too much -- and frankly it's too scarey.

    See -- this is the other big thing right now -- YOU, Debbie, need support.  If you will email me at callieatcritturs@yahoo.com I will help you.  I can help you make sense out of bloodwork, and know what to do next.  I will tell you about milk thistle and things to help make this journey a little easier.

    Her poop is discolored form the drugs and the inflammation.

    You will see lethargy for a LONG time -- and honestly that is a *good* thing not a bad thing.  Her body is trying SO hard to cope -- the heart is having to beat so much more/faster in order to turn the blood around and around and around so the body has **enough** red blood/oxygen to survive.  Her body is working SO hard it equates to you trying to run the Boston Marathon TWICE before breakfast.

    IMHA is hardest on the heart because the heart has to provide enough oxygen for the body to do all it needs to do just to survive.  So her body shuts down what it doesn't need -- it makes her SLEEP a lot -- just to conserve energy.

    Even when she starts holding blood you don't want her to be active.  All the drugs for IMHA cause weirdness in the blood -- things like "clumping" (which can turn into blood clots all too easily) -- so let her sleep.  Encourage her to sleep.  And don't worry about it -- she **NEEDS** it badly.  For a long long long time.  It is the biggest place for healing to start.

    "Your dog" will be back.  You **will** see her ... just be very very patient.  This is normal.

    There are not stupid questions -- if you will email me I will even give you my phone number.  Back when Billy was going thru this a couple of people helped us.  And my husband and I promised ourselves that we would help others.  Because you do need it.

    You can exhale now.  In fact you *must* Debbie.  Because if you are all upset, it makes her upset.

    And if you think about it -- when are ANY of us ever guaranteed to wake up tomorrow?  We aren't.  I could get hit by a bus on my way to work tomorrow.  But I probably won't.  In fact, I'll be really cautious and try not to be.

    So we take it one day at a time.    *hugs*  You are NORMAL.  Trust me on this!!

    Let me know how I can help.

    Callie

    Good luck!!  I know this is hard!!

    • Gold Top Dog

    As far as her wanting to eat dirt it is likely pure hunger as well as chemical.  You DO have to feed them more even as lethargic as they are because the body is working SO hard to supply enough oxygen to the body (fewer red cells so less oxygen circulating??)

    Pet Tinic is a big help -- give her high iron foods -- like beef heart, SOME liver (not tons -- it's a dirty organ -- heart is actually better), leafy greens like romaine, beet greens, kale and thigns like spinach, swiss chard if she isn't arthritic (a lot of leafy greens are high in oxalic acid and that makes a body with arthritis HURT).

    Now no -- you don't make a plate of greens and sit it down in front of her.

    You puree it -- and mix it in wtih meat.  Honestly home cooking can be a great thing for her righ tnow -- at least making toppers to put on kibble.  Lean beef, lamb, white fish (notice I have not said chicken?  too lacking in most of the minerals she needs now).

    Like I said -- email me -- I truly can help you.