I Didn't Know

Absolutely --

The big deal with arthritis (from someone who **lives** it) -- is not to go TOO far.  Arthritis is inflammation.  Bottom line -- that's the whole story.  So you don't want to WORSEN it with "going too far". 

 Let her rest A LOT.  Don't just keep going "because she's not limping".  If you go too far too fast it will create more inflammation which will worsen the arthritis (literally the bone itself gets inflamed -- which makes the bone "bigger" and which makes the cartilage more fragile and crack/break more easily. 

 it's almost an impossible line -- you WANT exercise (to not exercise means you get stiff which is painful). But you don't want to go "too far" -- which makes MORE inflammation and more problem.

 Dogs are so stoic -- they never stop voluntarily and particularly with a pain reliever they will just go as far as they can!  So don't let her do that.

 I have found a wagon is an incredible tool.  Schlep your purse, a bottle of water in there and take off with her on lead.  But stop when you get to the sidewalk (sometimes the first 60 feet is the HARDEST because you're ... well, stiff!) ... But then go to the end of the block .. and stop.  Let her   literally rest.  Then  go a bit further. 

 If she willingly lies down ... or seems tense .. get her in the wagon and let her ride.  This takes a bit of training -- but the wagon rocks because it does NOT mean the walk is "over".  Dogs LIKE being out - they like the social aspects, they like sniffing -- in fact after she's ridden for a block or two let her get out and walk a bit. 

 You will get really good at spotting Jessie's signs of "a little bit of pain".  Tension in the scruff of the neck is a really good gauge.  Let her get in and out of the wagon but ENCOURAGE her to ride. 

No longer will you walk her really as "exercise" (for you yes, for her?  no).  You walk to keep the stiffness away.  You walk to keep the joints moving -- but don't walk for endurance because that will break down cartilage more and more.

In other words -- you really have to be 'captain' on this -- because she will GO as far as possible.  They hate to give in.  But once she realizes that just because she rides a while does NOT mean we gotta go home. 

But don't wait until you see PAIN or limping - -that means you went *too* far and that creates more inflammation..

I have carried a folding chair in my car for about 15 years now.  That's meant I could still "go" -- I could still do things ... but I could stop as soon as it got painful.  And I've learned that when I "tough it out" and go TOO far -- then I'm in for a really sore day tomorrow and overall I set myself back.  So I push past stiffness ... but stop when it starts to hurt.  Rest just a bit -- and then go further.  So I may stop and go and stop and go 15 times or more.  But I get a LOT further than I would without stopping.  And Tomorrow I'm ok and can STILL go **because** I didn't overdo it *today*.

 Does that make any kind of sense??

The thing to watch with Tramadol -- like Tylenol is for us (which again is MERELY pain relief -- Tylenol simply tells your brain that you really don't hurt -- you actually DO but your brain doesn't perceive the pain) it merely shuts off "pain" but the reason that there IS pain (the underlying inflammation) is still VERY much there and it is not addressed at all by the Tramadol. 

You CAN address the inflammation with acupuncture.  You can also address it a LOT with topicals -- things like essential oils (wintergreen, peppermint, eucalyptus and blends thereof).  They really DO honestly reduce that underlying inflammation.  And THAT relieves pain beyond just when the meds wear off. 

I have done a ton of acupuncture with dogs -- actual needle acupuncture is by far more beneficial than electronic acupuncture.  It works better and it lasts longer.  (to be honest, on *me* electronic acupuncture is a waste of time but a lot of vets like it because it **looks** less scarey to humans). 

If you email me I can tell you what to expect.  But also -- I can tell you where I get the oils I use with the dogs and how to apply them.  They aren't thick -- in fact these oils are so thin they don't even look like an oil.  So they don't make fur all gunky. 

Another thing for you to consider is NutraJoint.  Again -- since Jessie's arthritis sounds like it's in early stage, it might be **super** beneficial because it actually repairs cartilage rather than just "plumping up" cartilage (which is what glucosamine/chondroitin do).  But with Jessie's other health issues YOU and your vets will be in a better place to determine if it's ok.  Condroitin, itself, is a light NSAID.

It's gelatin (bovine cartilage), calcium (not much -- not enough to upset the daily calcium intake) and some minerals.  It takes about 2-3 months to actually help repair cartilage.  it is NOT NOT NOT a pain reliever -- it literally is a supplement that helps re-build cartilage so it's a more permanent solution and actually can help get rid of a lot of arthritis.   But it is bovine *cartilage* NOT milk -- so it shouldn't upset the pancreas but you're a better judge of that.  It didn't bother Billy's pancreatitis at all -- but I've never used it on a severely pancreatic dog -- so you and the holistic vet probably will need to consult on that.

Most all NSAIDS (even herbal ones) are **very** hard on the stomach ... and to certain degrees on the liver/kidneys.  Even Tramadol is a bit ahrd on the liver -- so you may want to add some milk thistle (which shouldn't upset the pancrease at all.)

good luck --

In honestly - if you start adding the walks back in gently -- even with the wagon to help keep that satisfying without pain later -- you will likely find she will recover a LOT. 

At my age I actually am bothered LESS by arthritis than I was 15 years ago -- because I understand it better now and I manage it carefully. 

so I actually do MORE than I used to with a whole lot less pain.  (and MEGA arthritis doesn't run in my family - it GALLOPS on both sides!!) 

  Thanks so much for all the information. I know how Tramadol works (it's a mild opioid) and that it is not an anti-inflammatory. Medications like Rimadyl are, but my vet wanted to avoid NSAIDS (and so did I). He knows her bloodwork ( she had a full panel done recently) and wouldn't recommend the Tramadol if he felt it was risky. He mentioned Adequan injections but wanted to check to see if it would interact with the other medications she's taking, so that may be an option too. She has been taking joint supplements with glucosamine, MSM, and chondroitin since she was 7, at the recommendation of my vet. Because of her size, she was considered a senior. He said studies showed that dogs who took joint supplements had a later onset of arthritis than dogs that didn't, which may why she's done so well until recently. I know you recommend NutraJoint but Jessie is allergic to beef as well as chicken and I avoid any product with bovine or chicken cartilage. I would like for her to have acupuncture; my vet said it can be very effective, but Jessie had acupuncture a few years ago to see if it helped her chronic bronchitis and she didn't like it. I know they're supposed to relax during the procedure, perhaps even fall asleep, but she did not like the needles. She could feel them when the vet was putting them in. She's a very gentle girl and never tried to bite but it was stressful for her. I will probably take her to the vet that my vet recommended to see if her technique is better. I think I can find some of the oils at a health food store I shop at. I don't know if Jessie would get in a wagon, or would fit in one for that matter; she's mostly German Shepherd and may be too big. We are going to limit her walks and gradually increase them. She absolutely loves her walks and gets antsy if she missed a few, even at her age.

 Thanks Jackie; It was great to see her acting like that again! She loves her walks and at her age, they're necessary to help prevent muscle loss.

jessies_mom

I would like for her to have acupuncture; my vet said it can be very effective, but Jessie had acupuncture a few years ago to see if it helped her chronic bronchitis and she didn't like it. I know they're supposed to relax during the procedure, perhaps even fall asleep, but she did not like the needles. She could feel them when the vet was putting them in.

And **most** of the time they shouldn't feel them at all.  You feel the 'pressure' but not the needle and 5 different acupuncturists will ALL have different technique.  Some use a tiny plastic 'straw' that guides the needle and literally ALL you feel is that 'tap' which is less than a touch.  There are a FEW points that are close to bone that can be uncomfortable -- but typically an acupuncture vet will have quite a wide choice of places to put needles and if one spot bothers they go to another.

In addition -- *most* good acupuncture vets will start #! wtih a point on the top of the skull.  It is a major chill out point actually -- and I've had it done to ME (and I am absolutely WORTHLESS for hours after -- in fact I've seen the time when I have called David to come and get me because it made me too sleepy to drive!),  Most vets start with that point first -- simply because it eases the process so much. 

There are also a huge choice in needles themselves (nope they are not all alike).  There were some Dr. D used to use on Kee Shu that literally were so thin you could tie a knot in one (not joking - I did it once just to see).

But don't assume a dog will go to sleep -- I think I've had ... nine dogs of mine that have had acupuncture.  There were honestly 8 different resonses.  Muffin would go so hard asleep you almost couldn't wake him up after.  Billy NEVER went to sleep -- he viewed it as a time when he should be able to walk around and get eveyrone's attention (and you're far better off if you don't move after needles go in)>

The thought of it made Ms. Socks nervous.  She saw Muffin & Foxy get needled but .. um ... no ..... noooooooooo ... that's ok -- not me.  Dr. D started slow ... and soon it was no big deal to her. But you could almost hear her say "Nope -- TOO WEIRD for me!" until she had it a couple of times and discovered it helped.

Foxy never minded getting the needles in -- but he was WAY too much the wanderer -- if I reminded him he'd stand still -- but he never even laid down ... (he was such a nervous total herding dog incessant motion most of the time) -- he would walk carefully around ... TOMORROW he would sleep. 

Kee Shu would sleep.  But then for her ANY excuse was a good excuse for a nap.

 But seriously -- no, probably she won't go to sleep altho I've given up trying to predict responses.  Even Ms. Incessant Motion Tinkerbell -- she's great getting needles.  They truly ALL react differently. 

But it really IS helpful.  And going to someone your own vet already knows is good?  That's great!!

Sinbad (13 1/2) receives acupuncture (arthristis, spinal issues, larygeal paralysis) and he is not one to rest or sleep. He has a new acu vet (old one is on maternity leave) and this one starts with the point on the head, then adds a few needles at other points, waits a bit, adds a few more, etc. She was very clear that she understood that some dogs wander (Sinbad) and some dogs rest (NOT my Sinbad :-) -and that it depends on the day. For Sinbad, it works well to really manage the pain and other issues. (His new acu vet also subs for his regular vet--she is really good at seeing the benefits of both Eastern and Western meds. Frisby also had acu for pain (from all her IMHA meds) and it helped a lot, too. She did rest--would often sleep after the needles were inserted.

As Callie said, they all reaction differently.

I used chiro for Sinbad, too, but have moved to some of the massage the new acu vet uses.

I would talk to the acu vet--it sounds like he/she already has a good relationship with Jessie's "regular" vet, which is huge in my book.

  Callie;  I know about the sleeves and how thin the needles are, having sat with Jessie through 6 treatments when we tried acupuncture for her CB. The acupuncture room was different than the exam rooms; it had a rug for her to lay on in front of a sofa for owners. It was like a small living room. She didn't limp at all yesterday and DH noticed a difference in her when he walked her this morning. That's huge because he's not as quick to notice things ( once I replaced the lamp in the living room and he didn't notice the change for two weeks).  She had been sleeping most of the day, and I attributed that to her age. Yesterday and today she's been more active and sleeping less. Apparently she slept because it was too painful to be active, and the pain may have made her tired. It's like she's a few years younger. I know you have suffered a lot over the years with rheumatoid arthritis, and watching the change in Jessie gives me some idea of the effects of chronic pain.

 Thanks Kate and shadowsgin; Although she is tolerating the  Tramadol very well and it has made a big difference, I plan to contact the vet that my vet recommended next week. Kate; Jessie also has LP and if acupuncture has helped Sinbad it may help her too, so that's another good reason to see this vet.

jessies_mom

He mentioned Adequan injections but wanted to check to see if it would interact with the other medications she's taking, so that may be an option too.

If she can have it, I have had 2 dogs on Adequan with excellent results, so do try it. With RB Marlin, I was doing the shots myself here at home.  Now with Willy, we have to go in for a vet tech as it takes 2 of them -- he will not allow me to give him the shot. 

 Lovely to read she is enjoying her walks!  How wonderful!!  The exercise / movement also helps keep things 'moving' internally as well, same as with humans.  Well done!

I'm so happy for Jessie and for you too Janice. I have regrets about not trying some other remedies for Buffy, our 16 y.o. I think she could have enjoyed the last year or more much better had she been hurting less. In the future, I'll pursue more options like you have for Jessie.

jessies_mom

Callie;  I know about the sleeves and how thin the needles are, having sat with Jessie through 6 treatments when we tried acupuncture for her CB. The acupuncture room was different than the exam rooms; it had a rug for her to lay on in front of a sofa for owners. It was like a small living room.

I suspect you'll find it a bit different even with the other vet -- other vets (and some are trained differently some the same) do needlels SO differently.  It may also make a difference if you *tell* them she's had it before and it was difficult -- some vets are more adaptable than others (and again if your vet has a relationship wtih this acupuncture vet that may help). 

I hope it goes really well & that she continues to improve.  But that's the way with arthritis - SOMETIMES if you can get that particular incident under control and really get the inflammation to a point where you can "maintain". But it's not uncommon at all for arthritis to 'flare up" and cause intense pain -- and then you kinda get it under control and phew .. SO MUCH better!!

Go Jessie!!!  (and Go Janice!!)

I haven't had experience with an arthritic dog, so I'm not familiar with the medications, but we did try acupuncture for our dog, Tonka, to see if it would help with his laryngeal paralysis.  He was relatively cooperative when the vet inserted the needles, but he wanted to wander around rather than lie down and relax, so the vet decided not to leave the needles in as long as she normally would. 

I can only imagine how awesome it makes you feel to see Jessie resuming some "youthful" behavior and actions.  I'll try to remember everything that's been posted here --- definitely good info to keep in mind for the future. 

I can compare my own feelings/behavior to try to understand how an arthritic dog feels.  I haven't been diagnosed with arthritis, per se, but at nearly 50 years old, I definitely feel my age in my joints, especially since I sit in an office chair all day and don't have a super active recreational life.  It's definitely true that feeling stiff and achy makes one avoid some activity, when it would be better to move through that discomfort to help you feel better.  If I don't stretch a bit before getting out of bed, then I feel pretty darn creaky! 

I'm glad there are medications that help alleviate pain for senior dogs -- it definitely adds quality of life in their golden years.  Yay for Jessie!

tacran

He was relatively cooperative when the vet inserted the needles, but he wanted to wander around rather than lie down and relax, so the vet decided not to leave the needles in as long as she normally would. 

Normally we get down on the floor with the dog (or I sit across the table if the vet is doing needles up there -- depends on the dog/vet) --and I actually hold them.  Not in a headlock -- but just to keep them content to stand in one spot if possible.  Speaking simply as one who has had needles in ME -- you really don't "feel" a needle go in usually (you may in **some** specific points near 'bone';) but generally you feel zero -- ***BUT*** you really do NOT want to move that muscle.  Because **then** you may feel a twinge! 

I've had needles a lot for a lot of different things ... and it's actually darned rare that they are ever at all painful but *I* learned quick to sit still LOL. 

 Oh ... and Janice -- when I was talking about the needles and the little straw and how 'thin' some are??

 I wasn't clear -- some vets don't even *use* the little straw.  They just pick up the skin and insert the needle that way.  I guess there are a variety of techniques and I've seen different ones do it different ways.

 But when I was talking about some needles being so fine you can tie a knot in them?  That's not a typical acupucture needle.  There are TONS of varieties of needles -- some made out of different stuff, different textures -- the point being that even in humans there are different types of needles for different things and for different types of skin/muscle apparently.

Let me know how it goes if you guys try it -- It's helpful for folks to know how some cope differently than others.