Acupuncture and TCVM for pain and what else?

Lee debbie

 Ashton had his session this morning... He has arthritis and knee problems. I asked if it was ok we headed out for a walk in the evening. And during the walk, he was very slow and quite unwilling to walk. I got VERY worried. He stumbled a few times and I have been calling my vet with no response. He looks ok now, I'm waiting to see if he will have his supper. This is scaring me really. What should I look out for? Is lethargy normal after a session? He didn't cry in pain during the walk, but was terribly slow. And now he is just slumped there resting. I can't feed him right away to see if he's interested in food, but he was quite a different pup this afternoon.

I didn't see this yesterday. 

Debbie -- I can tell you for **ME** that I never ever schedule acupuncture on myself for early day.  Why?  Because I am worthless from that point on.  I MUST SLEEP after ... my holistic vet says the body needs to 're-boot' but all I want to do when I get out of there is GO TO SLEEP.  Literally lie down and sleep for hours!

If she did the point at the very top of his head?  That is a "chill out" point ANYWAY and that one really can put you to sleep.

This is likely an individual thing -- but if she did some strong points on him then I"m not surprised he didn't want to do nuffing!!   It's not so much lethargy -- it's just plain "I'm shut down let me SLEEP" if it's anything like me.  My dogs all tend to go home and crash after acupuncture -- but because I know what happens in me, I tend to encourage it.

 Hi Callie,

Dr S used to tell me to rest them after sessions. I asked Dr L yesterday if it was ok for a stroll, she said not a problem that's why I went for it, because the weather was lovely (seldom ever in singapore). Alphie was trotting away, Ashton was lagging. At first, I thought that he was sleepy, then when he stumbled like how Axl did, I swear *I* turned pale. And I think you are right. Even though Dr L didn't do the point on his head, it is afterall his first electroacupuncture and aquapuncture. I called this morning again and finally got through to which she quickly jumped to say it was not related to acupuncture. My intention was actually to know that it was related and I should just rest him. She made me a bigger worry wort today at work. Now I'm afraid to walk them just in case, and yet I don't want to regret later for not doing enough on time. And probably because Alphie didn't have the same effect, I must have assumed. I really hope it's this.

I have had (let me count ....) NINE different dogs who have had acpuncture regularly. 

9 and 9 **different** responses.   and honestly nine totally different responses right AT the vet in how they all behaved during actupuncture.  Muffin the Intrepid used to go SO soundly asleep **during** acupuncture we had to shake him to get him to wake up to leave! Some have to be held because the sensation of the needles makes them want to 'shake' constantly (which throws out the needles).  some sleep, some get social, some ignore it all.

But then get them home and you still get unique reactions.  It's an individual thing.  Because of how *I* personally react to it I'm more prone to let ANYbuddy sleep it off.  And I can, personally, get uncharacteristically ratty if you don't LET me go to bed and sleep.  I get grumpy.

If you corner a vet like that they are going to jump to defense and you are sounding SO worried.  I'm betting he'll be better today --

 He seems ok today. I didn't walk them, but he did follow me around the house expecting treats all the time again, so i think i got my pup back. But I wouldn't know how a walk would be till friday. Alphie on the other hand was giving me the very sad face, she circled around me twice walking funny because i had to bandage her foot (broken nail) and put on a sock.

Actually the evening after Ashton stumbled i called and got through but not to Dr L, it was the recept and she was repeating what I said about him stumbling and behaving odd, so she told some vet there who said it shouldn't be and if he's weak, I should rush him down. I was apprehensive and wanted to speak with Dr L instead, whom i only got to this morning. I just needed her reassurance that the points she was treating could likely make him a sleepy pup the whole day.

Lee debbie

I just needed her reassurance that the points she was treating could likely make him a sleepy pup the whole day.

She honestly probably can't tell you that -- it's not specific points as much as individual response -- it's totally individual how each one responds to it and WHEN it's reached it's full effectiveness.

I didn't even mention that -- but MOST people/animals getting acupuncture feel "different" right away.  My own DOM will always say to me "does your _____ feel better now?" after treatment and I'll look at him like he's insane, and then he'll say "Oh yeah, I forgot -- you NEVER feel different until you go home and sleep and it's tomorrow!!!"

But it's true -- with me, I never feel "different" after treatment.  Now tomorrow morning after I sleep and the "qi" circulates and does what it should I'm FINE, but right away?  Nope.

You may not want to pin her down in areas that may be speculation -- you'll likely only get answers that worry you and it's far too subjective for such a specific answer.  Right now you're operating out of what you remember of Axl crashing -- but you're watching their color and those symptoms.  Not everything leads to that one end.

 Today's session was alright, without the electroacupuncture. We had the aquapuncture and dry needles. Vet said Ashton is a little stiff today, so we'll see how it goes after today. For Alphie, improvement, her knee joints are better already. Medication and acupuncture is helping. I just hope to see the puppy in Ashton come back soon.

I've had electro-acupuncture (and cold laser and several other electronic "gizmos) and they all leave me totally cold.  There is truly nothing like regular acpuncture *unless* they hook it up to a TENS unit (where the put the little wire clips on the needles??) -- for a human that greatly intensifies the benefit but it's gotta be heck to adjust that for a dog. (you get a sizzling sensation almost like when you've been sitting on your foot and it goes all prickley??)

I think you said this vet uses the TENs unit.

 There are also foods you can give Ashton -- can you get Yucca root there?  How about Bok Choy?? (you gotta be able to get Bok Choy??) -- Chop the Bok choy finely and boil in a bit of water til tender.  That's really good for arthritis.

Yucca is typically Spanish but it may grow there as well.  It's a big thick root -- you have to peel with a potato peeler, and cook for ages.  (lots of water, cook on low for hours until it dissolves into a paste THEN discard the little fibers from the middle of it)  Yucca is a natural form of prednisone and it will help relieve the inflammation safely (none of the pred side effects).  It's mildly sweet -- they like it usually.

 Yup the little clips on the needles with electric pulses. That's electroacupuncture, no? They had that last week, and not this time. She said Alphie's better so she only did dry acupuncture and B12 jabs for both of them. I'm wondering why Ashton's stiff.

 We have bok choy here, I can give that a try. Yucca, I gotta find the chinese name for it, and drop by the grocers. I thought I've seen it in capsule form at a pharmacy, OR it could be a component I've seen on some pill bottle.

here what they usually call 'electronic acupuncture" is a little pen-shaped thing and they just put the tip in contact iwth the point on the skin -- It just sends an electrical current you can't feel.  It's very similar to the cold laser thing (but that's a light that shines on the skin).

What you're describing is usually called (to my understanding) regular acupuncture augmented by a TENs unit. 

Mine love bok choy -- and I'd bet what I get isn't nearly as nice as what you get.  In my favorite Oriental restaurant the bok choy is always very small (just a couple of inches high) whereas what I get at my grocery store is as big as a whole stalk of celery (probalby 15" long and 2-3 pounds usually).  But I use both the leaves and the "stalk" itself -- just chop it up/mince it up and cook it after I clean it.

Here you will often find yucca in the spanish section of the frozen foods.  It's already peeled and cut into rectangles about 4" long and an inch wide (made to deep fry) OR just cut up in chunks and frozen (it beats having to peel it) -- but it takes a LONG time to boil it broken down enough so that it makes a paste (which is digestible by the dogs).  I don't discard the water -- I use it in whatever else I'm then cooking for the dogs. 

Sometimes called agave (that's the 'family';) or cassava and in American Indian it's called Manioc Root.  I think it grows all over the world actually.  Usually the root can be anything from 6"to well over a foot long and about as big around as your wrist.  Usually you can find it in capsules in a health store.  But don't use that regularly without speaking to her vet.

 I'm searching online to see what it's called in chinese. I think it's tapioca. But the next time i see Dr S, I'll ask her for that.

Lee debbie

I think it's tapioca.

Yes, tapioca is made from the root of the Yuca plant. 

I deleted that because it all came out gobbledygook -- everything I looked up, referenced, and have ever used has spelled it "yucca".  But the root I buy (fresh and frozen) and the plant I've had in my yard has been yucca:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=yucca+root+pictures&qpvt=yucca+root+pictures&FORM=IGRE

I see Wikepedia has made the distinction between yuca and yucca but honestly in every-day practice, every grocery produce sign and every bottle of supplement I've ever seen has spelled it "yucca". 

 and

I'm not a gardener and never try to buy shrubs but I have dug yucca root (and eaten it) many times.   But in every herb book and printed list I've always seen it spelled with two "c"s and I know the American Indians referred to it as Manioc.   I was simply spelling it as I've always seen it referred to.