Acupuncture and TCVM for pain and what else?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Acupuncture and TCVM for pain and what else?

    Alphie has been going to a vet for acupuncture which is gaining recognition where I live. She has arthritis and possible hip displaysia at 9. She cries after every walk and it gets very disturbing and causes alot of heartache. I took her to a Japanese vet, Dr S who does acupuncture for 5 weeks now. She also does acupuncture for my 9 year old boy Ashton. Ashton apparently has some deficiency in his kidney/lung/liver, which has not been further investigated, but by pressing on acupoints, vet says so. She has also prescribed some chinese herbs for the both of them... the irony starts... I took them to another vet who also does acupuncture; just for a second opinion on certain issues for the both of them. Today Dr L did acupuncture for Alphie because she has a creaking knee (as per what Dr S said), and did electro-pulse something at the needles. Dr S does dry acupuncture. Dr L then gave Alphie a B12 jab at both sides of her hips. And prescribed Coix formula for Alphie, telling me not to give her di gu pi san which Dr S prescribed. Who do I listen to? Or merge both of their medication (and risk contraindications)? I admit I'm impressed with the electro-pulse something and the B12 jab because I didn't know this was done for dogs as well. And we're gonna continue heading there for weekly sessions for a month.

    Anyone who has used acupuncture for arthritis and pain relief, do you have a similar experience?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Sorry, Debbie -- me again, because yeah, I **do** get acupuncture myself (and that came about after a vet friend who does acupncture **and** neural surgery up at the Univ. of Florida told me HE gets it for himself as well).

     To answer the question in your title first -- because it is a good one -- TCVM (traditional Chinese veterinary medicine -- which is the dog version of Chinese or Korean medicine/acupuncture) and acupuncture are good for several things:

    1.  Acupuncture --

    Pain relief
    Expedites healing -- particularly from injury or surgery but also from illness
    Helps tonify the blood so the body gets better "fresh" oxygen from the blood and the toxins are removed better
    Seizure help -- more in that it helps support the organs that can be at the crux of seizures -- like liver problems, so by helping that organ it helps the seizures, and it also can help reduce the stress which can worsen seizures
    Lots of "specifics" -- like support for particular organs, emotional stress/disturbance; aging (particularly the dementia and physical challenges of aging)
    More - I'm still learning how very specific it can be to help various problems.

    2.  In particular with animals -- nutrition takes on a whole new dimension because the Oriental way is to use food like it was medicine.  I came home last week from my TCVM vet with "Wolf Berries" (I can't even spell the Chinese name) that are both for Charlie's eyes and Tink's "twitches" (petit mal seizures she has).  In both of those cases that food simply gives support to those particular organs involved.

    3.  Herbology -- it's a HUGE topic -- and Chinese herbs are different from Korean herbs (and I'm guessing each country has it's specifics but those are the only two I have experience with).  Oriental herbs are far stronger than anything we have in Western herbs (or even European herbs) and many of them are prescription only. 

    Beyond pain and healing, there are Chinese herbs which help treat cancer, and particularly can augment Western cancer treatment (literally they make chemo drugs work better, and specifiically also make the side effects to the drugs minimal and easier to tolerate).  Also the herbs they use for seizures/epilepsy are incredible.  I have had two dogs now that were seizure dogs - Kee Shu far more than Tink.  What these herbs can do to help with seizures is beyond amazing.  They do NOT always work, and honestly a lot of it depends on the practitioner and how *good* that particular practitioner is at herbology (in fact at any of the parts of TCVM). 

    4.  Tui Na -- sometimes this is the forgotten prong of TCVM -- Tui Na is sort of a cross between massage and chiropractic (altho to compare it to chiro is a disservice because it doesn't 'adjust' anything).  Essentially it's a specific type of massage that augments acupuncture and helps all of the above.

     

    Lee debbie
    Today Dr L did acupuncture for Alphie because she has a creaking knee (as per what Dr S said), and did electro-pulse something at the needles. Dr S does dry acupuncture. Dr L then gave Alphie a B12 jab at both sides of her hips. And prescribed Coix formula for Alphie, telling me not to give her di gu pi san which Dr S prescribed. Who do I listen to? Or merge both of their medication (and risk contraindications)? I admit I'm impressed with the electro-pulse something and the B12 jab because I didn't know this was done for dogs as well. And we're gonna continue heading there for weekly sessions for a month.

     

    You have to listen to which one you think is better.  EVERY medical practiitoner -- Eastern or Western is going to have their own opinion.  They wilL NOT always agree. 

    B12 -- yeah, they give that to dogs and humans.  It can be a bit painful (speaking from experience again) BUT it can also rock for pain relief. 

    But -- was this just a "shot" (a/k/a "jab";) OR was it aquapuncture?  Really often you will see practitioners use injectible vitamins and sometimes homeopathic remedies but they inject them along acupuncture points (in order to get that particular thing to do something for one particular part of the body).

    If you're talking about little clips they put on acpuncture needles that then runs a small/gentle electric current thru the needles?  I've had that done and I've seen it done for dogs.  It ramps up the acupuncture -- particularly if you're dealing with pain.

    HOWEVER -- there is also electronic acupuncture -- rather than using needles at all they just touch an electronic pen to an acupuncture  point for a few seconds.

    THAT I have not had good results with personally.  I know some of the US acupuncturists use it thinking it is safer (so a dog isn't going to suddenly reach over and pull out a needle with it's mouth), but I've had it done MANY times on myself and frankly for me it is 100% completely ineffective.  I've had it done by several different practitioners and for me it's just plain a big ZERO.  And I know other people like it --- so, go figure. 

    Between these two practitioners listen carefully and ASK QUESTIONS.  I would have asked specifically *why* this new practitioner doesn't like the gui pi? 

    A TCVM practioner doesn't just do acupuncture.  The way they diagnose really should be different.  Often they will spend several minutes with their hands on the dog -- and in reality what they are doing is feeling various pulse points on the body to see how the blood is moving thru those spots.  This gets complicated -- I know *what* they do but explaining it is difficult.  But part of it is how forecfully the blood is moving thru that part of the body, is it smooth or does it feel different.  They have descriptions for all of that (thready, slippery, sluggish, etc.) and comparing one place to another they can then figure out where the break-down is and where the problem may be. 

    They also combine that with looking at the whole animal -- tongue, inside of ears, eyes, mouth, the smell of their breath (and ears) and the general condition of theh body, coat, nails, pads, etc.

    Hope that helps answer your question.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Hi Callie,

     Yup pain relief I thought and the correct the internal situation as much as possible in the most non-invasive way. Which was why I took them for a second opinion because Alphie didn't seem too willing to get up (still), and a friend told me about how Dr L has heaps of great reviews under her. Alphie did the little clips and electric wave at the needle thing. She looked so serious and stopped panting totally during the whole time like she was holding her breath. I was frightened this would stress her up.. it's a new clinic and new vet afterall. Ashton was sprawled all over the place (as usual). Dr L did the acupuncture at the hips followed by the B12 jabs, and yup, Alphie wasn't too happy with those. She mentioned that Alphie was an "earth" (or wood, I wish i had photographic memory) character, and that she didn't have enough Chi in her, so her tongue is a little dull and pale. She also mentioned how di gu pi san was to expel heat, so what Alphie needed was "chi" and not "yin/yang" (gosh I can't recall which). So Ashton could take di gu pi san but not Alphie (the contradicting part). Then she gave her coix formula. I was trying to read up coix versus di gu pi san and thought Alphie could take both, but then that's me, but I will follow the vet's instructions.

    She felt both dogs and told me Alphie had a bad knee, hip problems and she's dealing with the pain. While Ashton, whom I've always thought had no pain or hip issues, actually has a worse hip than Alphie, but it's probably become a nagging pain. I'm really hoping the acupuncture will help with the pain soon and alleviate her panting issues (if it is pain induced). What was so different was that she didn't do anything for Ashton, no acupuncture, and even commented that his skin/fur/body wasn't all too bad (except for his potato-sack-like figure). And she kept comparing with the worse cases where the dog wouldn't even move (now, that would be bad; for me, that would have caused a first world crisis in my books). 

    I know a little about chinese herbs aiding in cancer, i don't know how it works, but millions of foreigners land in singapore and hong kong for treatment so something must work. My dad *had* cancer and has been in remission for 15 years, and he relies on both western and chinese medication. Even with his severe psoraisis, he does a mix too, or rather he did, now he's on some western drug which has horrible side effects, talk about benefits outweighing the bad. 

    Dr L seems confident of herself, BUT, I felt she wasn't very happy to be a second opinion, and I hope that was not why she was a little condescending towards me when I tried to ask questions. I felt a little brushed off when I asked about Ashton; if he needed some acupuncture to cleanse his blood (Dr S did so), because to me, it was obvious how the nice glossy fur change to coarse and curly fur within months and that warranted some attention I thought. Again she said he wasn't looking like some dogs who have lost all their fur and looked literally like A huge hot spot. 

    So now I know acupuncture doesn't simply just alleviate pain, so I should insist that Ashton should also get treated? All she said was Ashton loves staying in the sun likely because his kidney was cool and wasn't regulating his heat enough and let him go on di gu pi san... and that was it.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'd pick between the two and this new vet may be better. 

     I literally sit there and take notes myself or I'd never know what they said.  YOu may have to ask about acupuncture for Ashton -- two at once may have been difficult for her.

    • Gold Top Dog

     I thought so. She seems better, but I did ask about Ashton getting a session to sort his internal stuff out, she said not at this point, no (but he has hip displaysia!!!) still nope. So now i'm a little torn between taking Ashton to see Dr S, while taking Alphie to see Dr L. The hospital Dr L is in is a hospital I don't think I'll take any of them for other issues though, the previous hospital would still be a better bet for other problems, diagnosis and treatment... afterall, they do boast of singapore's best vet for ultrasound and the founder being the best vet for a list of other stuff (founder of Addiction foods).

    • Gold Top Dog

    Lee debbie
     I thought so. She seems better, but I did ask about Ashton getting a session to sort his internal stuff out, she said not at this point, no (but he has hip displaysia!!!) still nope

     

    Ask her to elaborate -- she may not want to commit to that if she thinks she is just a "second" opinion.  Tell her you're concerned about pain given that he's so stoic. 

     If it were me I wouldn't flit back and forth - Id develope a relationship with ONE of the vets and put your energy into learning how best to communicate with that vet.  There is little to be gained from two separate vets just because you may not understand fully what one is thinking.  These dogs affect each other, live with you, eat your food, and are under your care. 

    There are times establishing a relationship with a vet is not easy - it takes time and effort to learn to understand them and what they are thinking.  Also for them to trust you and your observations.

    • Gold Top Dog

    calliecritturs

    Lee debbie
     I thought so. She seems better, but I did ask about Ashton getting a session to sort his internal stuff out, she said not at this point, no (but he has hip displaysia!!!) still nope

     

    Ask her to elaborate -- she may not want to commit to that if she thinks she is just a "second" opinion.  Tell her you're concerned about pain given that he's so stoic. 


    There are times establishing a relationship with a vet is not easy - it takes time and effort to learn to understand them and what they are thinking.  Also for them to trust you and your observations.

     

    Ok, I'll try doing that over the next month. The appointment for next week is for Alphie only, but Ashton will be coming along for moral support, I'll just throw in the question and see if she changes her mind. She told me to give it month with di gu pi san and see how it goes for him. I'll do that too.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Lee debbie

    Ok, I'll try doing that over the next month. The appointment for next week is for Alphie only, but Ashton will be coming along for moral support, I'll just throw in the question and see if she changes her mind. She told me to give it month with di gu pi san and see how it goes for him. I'll do that too.

     

    I always pay for separate office visits even when I bring two dogs in -- and if BOTH are seeing the vet, she needs to know that before hand because she'll need a double appointment (they have to focus on each dog in turn and most of the time the needles aren't done at the same time -- because they have to be supervised. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Sometimes It takes a bit to figure out what therapy or combination of will work best for you and your dog. I would trust your gut and go with which one you feel best about.

    You should never feel uncomfortable or put off about asking questions. I ask all time and feel like I may get carried away, but my Holistic Vet never bats an eyelash.

    I to would pick a vet and build a relationship. I would also pick the vet I though genuinely care about the patient and the job they are doing.

    do not have experience with TCVM. I do take My dogs to a regular vet and a Holistic vet .

    The Holistic Vet does Acupuncture, Physical therapy and water treadmill along with Herbs and other natural medicines.

    The acupuncture and Treadmill have done very well for my dogs. Like Callie’s TCVM the way she diagnoses is very different. Spending time going over the body. She really has a good understanding and feel for the animals body explaining what’s going on in each spot or the body, I don’t even think my regular vet could do. 

    .

    She to looks at the tongue, inside of ears, eyes, mouth, the smell of their breath (and ears) and the general condition of theh body, coat, nails, pads and the way they move. She also has a regular Veterinaries license.

    If she would allow it I would use just her. I really like the knowledge she possesses and the care and time she gives each dog. Not to mention the relationship she has build with us. We are not just another patient.

    My dogs have never had the electro-pulse therapy , But I have as part of physical therapy

    After injuring my knee in a bout ( game) it did wonders and I did not end up needing surgery.

    • Gold Top Dog

     I actually made an appointment today for both of them, so blocking out an hour slot. But her main focus seemed to be Alphie. Dr L is a vet registered with the Chi institute. Though I think she's better in the acupuncture, somehow Dr S is more caring and addresses my concerns more willingly. That's why my thoughts are that if the issue isn't joint/arthritis/pain related, I'm wondering if I should go to Dr L. When I asked her about the thyroid testing and results, she simply said she doesn't know what other way to tell if they have hypothyroidism other than the free T4. And because the results were within range, they didn't need supplements or medication.  She only mentioned if it isn't thyroxine they are taking, nothing else helps. I see her point, but we are taking supplements and somehow if the T4 is to be trusted, the supplements did help then. The clinic staff aren't too friendly either. i walked in with 2 chunky potatoes dragging me in different directions, and all they did was warn me of the dog in the corner. It was a very narrow clinic so I waited outside in the end, much better.

    I guess Dr L isn't all too approachable. After the session, she passed the chinese medication to the recept and i couldn't get to ask her what it was for, till I googled it. In some way I'd like a vet who speaks in a calm manner, than one who's condescending and making me feel like I'm eating into her time. but anyway, we'll stick to her for this issue and hopefully she'll warm up in time. The guys love Dr S' office though, coz every vet tech comes in to pat them, say hi and slip a treat without me knowing...

    • Gold Top Dog

    PawMaid
    She also has a regular Veterinaries license.

     

    That is REALLY important.  In order to be a graduate of the Chi Institute (they're the one to coin the term "TCVM";) they **require** a DVM before you can even take their classes or get certified thru them.  In some states it is actually legal to hang out a sign "holistic" and practice ... something??? 

    Debbie is in Singaporeand I have no idea what their laws require. 

    PawMaid

    If she would allow it I would use just her. I really like the knowledge she possesses and the care and time she gives each dog. Not to mention the relationship she has build with us. We are not just another patient.

    The folks from the Chi Institute use the term "complimentary therapy" -- or "integrative medicine" -- they don't want to do rabies shots or surgeries.  In fact many of them center their practices on chronically ill patients.  They prefer NOT to be your only vet -- preferring to center their time on what they do best. 

    PawMaid

    My dogs have never had the electro-pulse therapy , But I have as part of physical therapy

    I'm going to offer the assumption that I don't think it's often done on dogs.  It's used when the vet feels they have to focus energy strongly somewhere -- usually not in run of the mill average situations, but something they really want to focus extra on.

    Paw Maid will understand when I say they hook those clips to the needles and then they have to adjust the power of the current.  When I've had it done on me in the past I will usually decide to tolerate quite a bit of current.  That would frighten a dog -- and you really can't ask a dog how much is "enough".  I think that's why it's not typically done.   Not that it's bad -- it just requires some extra concern and care on the vet's part to ensure that the current isn't uncomfortable.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Both doctors are certified vets from Australia. I've been taking really short walks these days because I still cannot get over the phobia of anyone collapsing and the helplessness thereafter. Today I decided to do a longer one. Before I could reach too far, Ashton was tripping over but not actually falling. I headed home. AND called Dr L's office for an appointment with Ashton as well. Alphie has stopped crying after walks and that is a huge huge relief, but Ashton did whimper. I am terrified of their cries, it sends shivers down my spine for some reason and I know what follows may not always be good news. I hope Dr L takes a closer look at Ashton this time.
    • Gold Top Dog

    I know you are in Singapore, but how about a wagon?  Here I'd say look on Craigslist -- but those plastic wagons ROCK for a dog. 

    There are a ton of different "brands" -- but Radio Flyer's "Ultimate" has seats but the backs fold down to make the wagon "flat".  A folded up rug in the bottom makes an awesome cushy bed -- and you could simply bring the wagon along for whichever dog gets tired.  Then they can STOP  **right then** and not have to walk home.

    I've used wagons for years for older dogs. 

    This was Ms. Kee Shu in the Adventurer 1 (this is the Radio Flyer "Ultimate" and they have others).  But you can see she only takes up a tiny bit of it in front.  Definitely room for a golden in there lying down.  Luna would beg me to remind you her legs may be short but she's as long (or longer) bodied than a golden and SHE fits!!  LOL

     Do you already have a wagon for your son??

    • Gold Top Dog

    It's not feasible... Not at the park we go to. I've ever thought of screaming for my pram When I need it... The wagon wouldn't go on the park route too.

    That is sooo cute by the way.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Ashton had his session this morning... He has arthritis and knee problems. I asked if it was ok we headed out for a walk in the evening. And during the walk, he was very slow and quite unwilling to walk. I got VERY worried. He stumbled a few times and I have been calling my vet with no response. He looks ok now, I'm waiting to see if he will have his supper. This is scaring me really. What should I look out for? Is lethargy normal after a session? He didn't cry in pain during the walk, but was terribly slow. And now he is just slumped there resting. I can't feed him right away to see if he's interested in food, but he was quite a different pup this afternoon.