Insanely itchy (kpwlee)

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    • Gold Top Dog

    Insanely itchy (kpwlee)

     Bugsy has been itchier than I can ever recall - only in certain spots. As an allergy dog itchies are part of life.

    The spots are the base of his tail, just in front of both hind legs (tummy area) and somewhere on his head (hard to pinpoint as he scratches the side of his face, top of his head,and under the ears).

    He will jump up to scratch or chew these areas from a dead sleep. 

    I have bathed him, brushed him more than ever, tried Frontline, he gets Benadryl daily right now due to allergies, sprayed Benadryl on him none have helped.

    The skin is not red, there are no marks (except a couple of times he must have nipped himself), no dandruff, no visible signs of anything.

    I am at a total loss - he was doing it on his normal food of Orijen and also on the pork food he has now so its not the food.

    I had his thyroid tested recently as one of his main signs of hypo was itching, but even that wasn't like this.  He REALLY goes at himself.

    Any thoughts? Suggestions?

    I feel bad for him but am at a total loss as to what is going on

    • Gold Top Dog

    Twister's going through something similar.  Benadryl wasn't touching it and he has scratched and chewed himself bloody in a few spots.  He's on some antihistamines from the vet and a short term course of prednisone.  My vet said the pollen explosion has tons of dogs itching like crazy.  I wipe him down every time he comes in the house and have limited his outside time to potty breaks. :(  The hydoxyzine (antihistamine) seems to be helping.  I've never seen him as bad as this year and hope this pollen stops soon as it breaks my heart to see him so miserable.

    When my vet saw Twister she noted that the places he's itching and chewing are the typical areas for a reaction to allergens from pollen.  The exact areas you decribed on Bugsy.

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    • Gold Top Dog

     Great info Jackie thank you - I gathered it was allergies, sigh.

    Hoping Twister is doing better SOON!

    • Gold Top Dog

    Right there with you guys.  Jamison is really itchy too.  We go about once a month for a shot of antihistamine (I don't remember the name of the stuff) in addition to doing the Benedryl.

    Deb W.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Just a couple of weird not-typical ideas

    First, when antihistamine touches it **not at all** and particularly when someone describes the dog as waking from a sound sleep TO scratch, one of the things I always suspect is sarcops (sarcoptic mange mites).

    Don't jump to conclusions on me here -- we all have the typical stereotype "but sarcops are only in dirty places" ... NOT true.  Most of the time, sarcoptic mange mites like to stay with their chosen host.  i.e., the bum on the corner and his dog -- the bum, himself, may have contacted scabies but generally they will stay on HIM, not the dog, or if his dog has sarcops they won't bite the man.  Because each variety of sarcops likes to get their blood feast from their normal host (like scabies mites want human blood but also they want to reproduce in human skin).

    There is a variety of sarcops out there for every single different species that is warm-blooded I think.  HOWEVER -- in these days where natural resources are diminishing and urban crawl is taking up more and more of the space where wild critters used to be, this is changing.

    At this point, it's not uncommon for any wild animal to have sarcops -- but that coon sitting up in your tree that scratches and a couple of the mites fall off, only to be picked up by the next red-blooded animal that walks that way.  The mites may literally only be interested in a blood feast (but when they bite that's when the vicous itchy venom is injected that makes the horrific itch), and they may or may not attempt to lay eggs in that creature's skin -- but they are finding the mites are willing to generalize to survive -- and more and more wildlife sarcops are becoming a problem to dogs and domestic species.

    My point -- dogs that have access to the outdoors -- particularly one like Bugs who lives near other wild critters -- he could be harassed by wildlife sarcops -- you might not see the tell-tale bumps where eggs have been laid -- but you will see the results of them getting bitten in the violent itch. 

    It's just a possibility.   The only "easy" solution is either Lyme Dip (which smells like rotten eggs but is a relatively safe topical pesticide that even humans can use on their skin) or ivermectin/milbemycin in sufficient dose to kill sarcops (i.e., not a heartworm preventive dose -- the dose to kill sarcops is relatively high for both of those).  If you think this is a possible -- discuss it with your vet plainly -- including making the vet aware of how vicious this itch is and all your efforts to stop it.

    Now, that's not to say that the next time he goes for a walk he won't get walloped again.

    Sorry -- this is long -- but it IS a possible.  It may not be likely -- but I've seen times when it really has aggravated a typical allergy dog's problem.  Billy even tangled with wildlife sarcops at one point.  Just thinking about the danged sarcops made ME so itchy that after I wiped him down with Lyme Dip *I* did myself, too.  ugh. 

    Question -- are any of the residential humans bothered by even a brief little nasty red rash?  Typically somewhere near where you may sit and cuddle with the dog?  Jackie - in your case, sarcops won't always go from dog to dog -- but they do like the ones even moderately immune-compromised like an allergy dog.  That's another red flag that you might be dealing with sarcops.

    Possible helps

    A.  Dogs can take most ANY antihistamine humans can but their dose is always different.  I don't have my Pill Book Guide here at work, but one other anthistamine that tends to be really good on dogs is Tavist (clemastine, if I recollect correcctly).  But switching to a different antihistamine can be helpful -- vets often prescribe hydroxyzine but it's typically less strong than either Benedryl or Tavist.

    B.  Homeopathics -- this is where I really got into homoepathics for dogs -- the down side is they don't last long in the body -- you have to give them more frequently.  And if you are browsing the selection of homeopathics at Whole Foods or similar, you really want a BLEND, not one of the little blue tube "singles" of Boiron's. 

    Apis is the best for dog allergies (because of how it comes out on the skin, rather than sinus/eyes with humans) -- so either choose a blend that has apis in it, or choose a blend like Hyland's "Oak and Ivey" that is made for skin allergic reactions. 

    Hylands also has one called "Hives" that is particularly good.  Newtons (that's a brand) is often used on dogs because it's a liquid -- you just squirt it under their lip so it drips over their gums/into the mouth.

    The little pills that the rest of these are -- don't put them in food.  Fold a 3X5 card and crush  and pour the powder in their mouth or let them lick it up.  Mine will actually CHEW them up (which is best). 

    Homeopathics have to absorb in the mouth.  Don't combine them with food or put in their water. 

    With a homeopathic a "loading dose" is often helpful -- Give it the first time, and then give it again in half an hour.  Then every 4 hours.

    The upside?  No sleepyness, and no dry mouth.  Virtually side-effect free.

    Billy did particularly well on -Heel's Allergy blend (Karen, same company that makes Traumeel -- and DO give Bugsy a Traumeel after you give him the Allergy blend if you use that -- Traumeel will reduce the inflammation and help balance the immune system's on/off mechanism).

    Tink, on the other paw, does really well on Hylands "Oak & Ivey".  I used that on her even for the nasty itch of demodex when she was a puppy. 

    Sorry this is so long but these are both not-often-considered things and you guys are in a difficult place.  Billy was THE WORST allergy dog I've ever had, and generally I could bring the itching under control better with homeopathy than I could with antihistamine.

    **note please**

    Homeopathy is often dismissed by people as being so "weak" that it's no good.  It's actually darned strong stuff and can do things you don't even see.  IF YOU USE the Blue Boiron tubes -- use them on a one off situation but use NO LONGER than 3 days unless you go get a homeopathic vet to help you.  You can make bigger changes with a single remedy than you realize you are making.  This is why I'm encouraging you folks new to homeopathy to try the blends.  Generally they are extremely safe and can be used indefinitely with safety.

    I hope this helps SOMEONE. 

    • Gold Top Dog

     I'll join the crowd with Java...ugh!  My Vet said chewing at the base of the tail is a sign of fleas, which are hard to see on a black dog.  I only have flea problems once in a great while, so I was doubtful of that, but apparently the new dog next door has them bad...and now, so do we.  Frontline seemed to help for about 2 weeks, then they were back.  We switched her to Comfortis, which kills fleas in about 30 minutes.  In Java's case, it is a combination of allergies and fleas (allergic to fleas as well as other things).  He also gave her an antibiotic injection which lasts for 2 weeks (covenia), medrol, and spray the area with GentaSpray. 

    I don't know if that will help at all, but she has calmed down a lot.  Some people are saying that Frontline doesn't seem to be working as well as it used to.  Maybe the fleas are building up a resistance?  

    • Gold Top Dog

    marty_ga
    My Vet said chewing at the base of the tail is a sign of fleas, which are hard to see on a black dog

    For some unknown reason, flea allergy dermatitis *starts* at the base of the tail ... then it works its way forward on the back with scabby ratty skin.  They don't have to have fleaS (as in plural) -- ALL it takes is ONE flea to the allergic dog.  They are actually allergic to the flea's spit (yes, I'm serious) and all it takes is ONE bite from one flea to make an allergic dog miserable for months. 

    marty_ga
    Some people are saying that Frontline doesn't seem to be working as well as it used to.  Maybe the fleas are building up a resistance?  

    Frontline is not working in many, many places -- resistance -- oh yes.  It hasn't been working down here in Florida for several years.  I'm back to Advantage cos Comfortis isn't an option for my dogs. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Marty, it's true that chewing at the base of the tail is often a sign of fleas and the fleas seem to like to lay their eggs in this area.  In Twister's case he's not chewing at the base of his tail but higher up on his back and other areas.  All of my dogs have been on Comfortis for years and now are on the combined flea/heartworm called Trifexis which has the same active ingredient (spinosad) as the Comfortis. We have to give flea and heartworm treatment year round.  My vet doesn't think this is flea bite allergy.  This was the first thing I asked her since fleas can bite and cause a reaction before the Comfortis kills them.  I'm glad Java's itchies have calmed down. :)

    Callie, the efficacy of Benadryl and hydroxyzine is about equal.  I can send you the links if you're interested. Both work on the same receptors.  Benadryl is faster acting by about an hour. The hydroxy is more helpful for dogs with itchy skin and benadryl is often used in case of an allergic reaction to an insect bite.  This is from some research I did when my vet prescribed the hydroxy.  Twister has never responded to Benadryl like some dogs do. Sarcops is extremely contagious (the mites don't stay with one host) and none of my other dogs are itchy and neither are the humans.  I will keep an eye out for that possibility though. 

    I hope all the itchy dogs get relief soon.  I called my DH who is off today and he said the little terror is doing well and isn't itchy.  Fingers crossed that we'll see the end of the pollen season soon. 

    ETA  My vet told me that giving Omega 3's in conjunction with the antihistamines is very helpful.  I read this in my research too. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    JackieG
    Callie, the efficacy of Benadryl and hydroxyzine is about equal.  I can send you the links if you're interested. Both work on the same receptors.  Benadryl is faster acting by about an hour. The hydroxy is more helpful for dogs with itchy skin and benadryl is often used in case of an allergic reaction to an insect bite.  This is from some research I did when my vet prescribed the hydroxy.  Twister has never responded to Benadryl like some dogs do.

    It really comes down to the individual -- the seminars I've been to up at UF have offered that dogs really do tolerate a wide spectrum of antihistamines but they all have to be dosed specifically so ASK YOUR VET.  Last I spoke with my vet, he was starting to suggest Tavist more because it really seemed to be helpful for some allergy dogs who don't respond to benedryl nor hydroxy.

    JackieG
    Sarcops is extremely contagious (the mites don't stay with one host) and none of my other dogs are itchy and neither are the humans.  I will keep an eye out for that possibility though. 

    In the case of wildlife sarcops they can be fleeting -- they get the blood to feed but quickly decide 'I don't wanna breed here' and jump off.  BUT they will often avoid totally the healthier dogs -- they seem to have an uncanny knack (which I'm sure is simply part of their inate ability) to sense ANYTHING at all immune-comrpromised.  Often they won't bother other dogs at all -- often won't bother the humans, simply because somehow the scent isn't right but may choose one dog repeatedly to feed from.

    UF was warning several years ago here in Florida that wildlife sarcops was becoming more and more of a problem because of the vanishing habitat for some wildlife and sarcops are Nature's survivalists.  And they're generally far far too fast to catch on a slide for identification. 

    Because they just plain don't often take up residence ON the dog, but bite and look further for a place to reproduce, it's the very devil trying to treat.  You can't even spray your yard to get rid of them -- altho putting stuff like diatamaceous earth down in places in your yard where wildlife may congregate may help because then any sarcops on the ground will be less able to survive between bloodfeasts.  If I recall correctly their life cycle is about 21 days total, but generally if wildlife sarcops are a problem then the area is habitat somehow.

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    • Gold Top Dog

     Thank you all for the info - I don't think its fleas, I feel certain that I would see something.  With his hair being so short and so limited in the underbelly I have a very clear view of his skin.

    I also was a bit concerned about sarcops BUT neither I nor DH are itchy. And the location of the itchies on B have been consistent. One would think that with fleas or sarcops the itchiness would migrate, enlarge or something.

    I am also a little confused as to what could be triggering the allergic reaction because this has been going on for a long time, well before the pollen explosion. 

    Just thinking about it now - he is doing it less once the benadryl kicks in.

    I feel fortunate that he isn't causing wounds to himself but I would sure like to calm it down some.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Lily is itchy too. No clue what her allergies are but she isn't as bad as what B sounds like. Benedryl works for her. Anyway, a dog on our team (lab) has had pretty extreme allergies all her life. They were convinced it was food related and went about trying to figure out what foods she was allergic to. They held off on the blood test because they heard it wasn't worth it or very reliable. Well, after the dog started behaving like b is, and worse, they did the blood test. Turns out the dist mite allergy was off the charts along with some other minor environmental allergies. They still suspect some type of food allergy along with the dust mite thing but the dust mite allergy without a doubt is responsible for wiggling all over the ground trying to scratch herself silly. Since dust mites are everywhere they are now doing allergy shots. I'm so happy they went this route (the blood test and shots) because it was painful to watch this poor dog be so miserable. She looks soooo much better than she ever has in the 4 yrs I have known her
    • Gold Top Dog

    kpwlee
    he is doing it less once the benadryl kicks in.

    Sometimes Benedryl is a good diagnostic tool -- IF the Benedryl is having at least *some* effect then that, coupled with the consistency of the itchy spots, probably pretty well defines it as not sarcops.

    Allergies in dogs do grow as time passes -- they can generalize and more things can be allergens.  We have also had such a mild winter that a lot of things that are normally gotten rid of by cold were not this year. 

    If you want, give me a shout about the homeopathics -- he's responded well to the Traumeel -- he might really get some help with them, and they certainly are easier by lack of side effects.

    A friend of mine up in NY State ultimately opted for the broad allergy testing and in her case it was incredibly helpful.  She'd identified that it was atopic -- and seasonal.When she had his allergies tested at Cornell, it came back with all the typical goldenrod, grasses, oak, maple, hay, etc. .... BUT his #1 allergen?  FEATHERS.  (a very **rare** dog allergy)   BUT it never occurred to her that when she brought out the feather duvet Quincy's allergies blew out big time. 

    She bought hypo allergenic covers for the duvet and pillows and the problem was greatly reduced.

    Now I'm not suggesting Bugs is allergic to feathers (I've seen him tote that toy around in pictures too much!!) BUT occasionally there is a unique allergen that is something you can DO something about. 

    Between Muffin and Billy I think I've had two of the worst allergy dogs on the planet.  With Billy that's where I got sold on the breed-specific thyroid testing -- we tested his thyroid FOUR times (and he was otherwise such a typical hypo-suspect because of his weight and nature) to no avail.  But once we sent it to Michigan State -- BINGO -- that came up hypothyroid and the allergies were always way less after supplementation.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Don't rule out other sorts of allergies.

     Sugar developed itchy skin, after living here 4 years.  It took months, but I finally realized it all tied in to when I bought a new front loading high efficiency washing machine.  The HE Tide was too much for her.  I now use a soap nuts based laundry soap.  Once I figured it out, I did about 60 loads of laundry in 2 weeks, starting with the pet beds, then the furniture throws, all OUR bedding down to and including the mattress cover and up, including the pillows.  Of course I figured this out in late Sept, so we were changing our wardrobes, so all the summer AND winter clothing got done.  It was so worth it, she's been fine ever since.

    In researching, I learned many pets and humans are allergic to Tide (all forms, not just the HE version).  I'd been living on Claritin in the mornings and Benadryl at night for 14 YEARS thinking I was allergic to my cats; since switching the laundry detergent, I have not needed any!

     And, it may be something you have used long term, but if the company changed their formula, that could be the trigger.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Aww, poor Bugs!  As a seasonal allergy sufferer myself, I know how annoying it is when you can't stop scratching . . . for me, it'll be my eyes at the worst point of the season.

    Karen, everyone else has posted far more detailed and valuable input than I can offer, but I wanted to throw out a couple things we had decent luck with when Tonka was still with us.  He didn't have seasonal allergies per se, but he was kind of a sensitive dog, and we managed his worst issues with a very limited ingredient food and plenty of fish oils.  However, he still had occasional flare-ups of dermatitis-type issues between his toes.  The skin between his toes would get so red, and he would lick them a lot. 

    I think it was in the Whole Dog Journal where I found these tips, and they seemed to help.  One was to use dried nettle to brew a strong tea with the leaves, then put it in the fridge.  For all over itching, you could rinse the dog with the nettle tea in large quantities, but we would put it in a bowl and swish his feet in it. 

    Another tip was to do something similar with chamomile tea.  For an easy option, I kept lots of chamomile tea bags on hand, and I would run a few of them under cold water to "activate" the bag, squeeze them out, then I'd tuck the tea bags between his toes.  Luckily, he was the world's most cooperative and mellow dog (sniff -- I so miss my big boy!  Crying), so he'd relax quietly for several minutes with this version of a "foot soak."  He seemed to like it.  I don't know if the chamomile really did anything, or if it was just the cold compress of the teabag that stopped the itch for a while, but I used them anyway!

    I hope Bugsy's itchies get better soon!

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    • Gold Top Dog

     LOL Freedom myself and my brother have always had problems with various laundry soaps or other soaps so no changes there!

    I may try some of the homeopathic and will consider new bedding for him. I wash the blankets on his beds weekly, as always.

    And of course a vet trip to inquire about the various anti-histamines or a short course of pred to calm things. I do not want him to hurt himself.

    Julie I am glad that dog got relief. As you may recall B does have significant food allergies fortunately we've had those under control for ages. And he has a plethora of environmental allergies, this is new-ish (probably noticed in January or a little in late December - but it wasn't as frequent) and is more intense than the other itchies.

    I am also glad that Twister is doing better today! Hopefully Java, Abbie and the other itchy dogs will feel better soon too!

    Tracy you were posting at the same time as me!  Thank you for the input. I, too, suffer from multiple allergies so know the misery!  I may look into the nettle tea (is it just from nettles?) FWIW his toes get very discolored BUT he never messes with his feet. I try to clean his feet nightly to help with the reactivity there.

    And he is on Orijen fish food most of the time and gets oodles of fish oil - I recall telling the surgeon (knee) how much fish oil he was on and we laughed at how he should be a carp by now :)