A Myriad Of Issues

Sometimes, I think, the internet gives us access to too much information that we are not trained to handle.

I have gone through kidney failure with a couple of cats, and leaking bladder with a dog, all of them seniors. It is a tiring, painful time. I wish you well.

 ((( Dawn))); I'm so sorry Iggy's kidney disease is getting worse. Is he losing protein in his urine?  Jessie has mild protein loss; her blood work is well within normal limits so they're not sure if it's caused by her high blood pressure or if she has very early kidney disease (she's 13). She is on Benazepril to control the protein loss and it's only $4 for 30 tablets ( I get the generic). Is the fat source in his dry food plant based ( like canola, soybean, or sunflower oil), or animal based, like chicken fat? Plant oils are harmful for dogs with kidney disease. I know that a lot of websites say not to reduce protein in the diet for kidney disease, but if he's losing a lot of protein in his urine, he needs a lower protein diet. It sounds counter-intuitive, but less protein will reduce the work load on his kidneys, so they will function better. B vitamins are a great idea since he's urinating so frequently; he's probably losing B's in his urine. They're water soluble so he won't be getting an overdose of them. I'm not sure about the other supplements you listed.

   This website has good information;   DogAware.com Health: Kidney Disease in Dogs

                                                         DogAware.com Health: Liver Disease in Dogs

  It may take awhile for the sam-e to help. 

DougB

Sorry about your problems. I am NOT an expert on pet health. Remember, advice is probably worth what you pay for it. That being said, your dogs blood filtering system is failing. I would recommend caution with giving any supplements. I would be concerned about vitamin overdose, and would discuss this with my vet, or obtain a referral to an expert if I didn't trust my vet.

Sometimes, I think, the internet gives us access to too much information that we are not trained to handle.

I have gone through kidney failure with a couple of cats, and leaking bladder with a dog, all of them seniors. It is a tiring, painful time. I wish you well.

Hi Doug,

We moved from RI to AZ almost 9 years ago, and we had a wonderful, very knowledgeable vet who was affordable.  Here in AZ, vets are so expensive and most use any excuse to recommend their high priced dog food.  Most offer the Science Diet, which my dogs will not eat....but this new vet in town offers Royal Canin.  As I mentioned above it is $30 for 6 pounds.

This vet really hasn't done anything except to suggest the dry food, put him on Denosyl  (sam-e) and thyroid meds.  I found out about milk thistle from a couple of people here.  Without spending thousands on all kinds of blood work, ultrasounds, etc he is not suggesting any course of action.  In normal times it would not be much of a problem, but we were hit hard by the recession and are struggling to do the best we can for our 4 dogs and 3 horses.....which is less than I'd like.

I was hoping someone had some experience with this progression that they could offer some advice.....and I heartily note and agree with what you say about the internet and "free" advice.  I am just trying to do something to help Othello.  It is just so heart-wrenching to sit here and let him fade away without trying anything that may be the missing key.

DawnG

This vet really hasn't done anything except to suggest the dry food, put him on Denosyl  (sam-e) and thyroid meds

  He's done a full blood panel ( sometimes called a chem panel), hasn't he? Without that, there's very little he can do for your dog.

DawnG

Without spending thousands on all kinds of blood work, ultrasounds, etc he is not suggesting any course of action. 

     Has he done a complete urinalysis, including a protein-creatine ratio? It's not as expensive as the other tests you've listed and is essential to monitoring the kidneys. If it shows that Othello's losing a lot of protein in his urine, your vet may have a better idea of which diet is best, and also if Benazepril would be helpful.

  The links I included in my other post provide reliable information. The one for kidneys includes low phosphorus commercial diets, which would be cheaper than prescription diets. Here are a few others that you can trust;

     Chronic Renal Failure

    Chronic Renal (Kidney) Failure in Dogs - Page 1

     Kidney Disease: Causes, Signs, Diagnosis and Treatment in Dogs and Cats

DawnG

I was hoping someone had some experience with this progression that they could offer some advice

    There is a yahoo group for owners of dogs with kidney disease; you should be able to find the help you're looking for here;

    K9KIDNEYS : for owners of dogs with Kidney Disease

jessies_mom

 ((( Dawn))); I'm so sorry Iggy's kidney disease is getting worse. Is he losing protein in his urine?  Jessie has mild protein loss; her blood work is well within normal limits so they're not sure if it's caused by her high blood pressure or if she has very early kidney disease (she's 13). She is on Benazepril to control the protein loss and it's only $4 for 30 tablets ( I get the generic). Is the fat source in his dry food plant based ( like canola, soybean, or sunflower oil), or animal based, like chicken fat? Plant oils are harmful for dogs with kidney disease. I know that a lot of websites say not to reduce protein in the diet for kidney disease, but if he's losing a lot of protein in his urine, he needs a lower protein diet. It sounds counter-intuitive, but less protein will reduce the work load on his kidneys, so they will function better. B vitamins are a great idea since he's urinating so frequently; he's probably losing B's in his urine. They're water soluble so he won't be getting an overdose of them. I'm not sure about the other supplements you listed.

   This website has good information;   DogAware.com Health: Kidney Disease in Dogs

                                                         DogAware.com Health: Liver Disease in Dogs

  

  It may take awhile for the sam-e to help. 

Janice,

 Thank you for some very helpful information.  My vet never said anything about b vitamins along with sam-e.  I will get some right away.

I read the entire article and was heartsick with a couple things they said.  One was about the ALK enzymes being only 2-3 times the norm.  The original blood work showed more than 25 x the norm.  That scares me so very much :(  The ALT enzyme also went up a little from 358 to 414 when the norm is 5 - 107.  From everything I read it seems Thel is extremely sick..

The Canidae formula dry food I have him on is chicken meal and rice.....no red meat at all.  The fat seems to come from chicken fat, but sunflower oil is mentioned about halfway down the list.  The article also mentioned giving cottage cheese as a protein source without all the complications of meat.  I am thinking of trying this.  I want to make my own dog food, but with all his issues, I am so very confused as what to add and not add *sigh*

jessies_mom

DawnG

This vet really hasn't done anything except to suggest the dry food, put him on Denosyl  (sam-e) and thyroid meds

 

  He's done a full blood panel ( sometimes called a chem panel), hasn't he? Without that, there's very little he can do for your dog.

  

DawnG

Without spending thousands on all kinds of blood work, ultrasounds, etc he is not suggesting any course of action. 

     Has he done a complete urinalysis, including a protein-creatine ratio? It's not as expensive as the other tests you've listed and is essential to monitoring the kidneys. If it shows that Othello's losing a lot of protein in his urine, your vet may have a better idea of which diet is best, and also if Benazepril would be helpful.

  The links I included in my other post provide reliable information. The one for kidneys includes low phosphorus commercial diets, which would be cheaper than prescription diets. Here are a few others that you can trust;

     Chronic Renal Failure

    Chronic Renal (Kidney) Failure in Dogs - Page 1

     Kidney Disease: Causes, Signs, Diagnosis and Treatment in Dogs and Cats

   

DawnG

I was hoping someone had some experience with this progression that they could offer some advice

    There is a yahoo group for owners of dogs with kidney disease; you should be able to find the help you're looking for here;

    K9KIDNEYS : for owners of dogs with Kidney Disease  

 

   

Yes he did a full blood panel.  I have a copy of the results.  He never mentioned doing a urinalysis, although I would think he SHOULD have.  Thel has been urinating much more than usual before he went to the vets and that was one of the points I brought up to them.

I will check out the other websites and Yahoo group.  I belong the the K9Kitchen.

The vet did say some of the problems may be coming from his teeth, which up until a couple of years ago was kept up with religiously, but after seeing the results of the blood work he thought his kidneys and liver could not withstand anesthesia :(

Dawn, I so wish there was a TCVM vet near you -- the Chinese herbs tend to work *so* well on early renal failure. 

I would truly encourage you to use the Cell Food SAM-e in addition to the Denosyl.  Even just 4 drops twice a day in addition to the Denosyl should help get the liver numbers down.  You found it right??

I know all the trends say to give a higher protein diet for kidneys, and honestly, I've never found that all that helpful.  I wouldn't try to give a higher protein diet than the liver can handle.  That's just me. 

The only other suggestion I would have - particularly if you still want to try home-cooking -- would be to consult with someone like Monica Segal (http://www.monicasegal.com ) -- she will literally write a specific diet for you to make for Thel covering both situations.  But she'll make sure you are giving a balanced diet that takes both situations into account.

DawnG

I belong the the K9Kitchen.

  Do you have any of Monica's books? Optimal Nutrition has chapters on liver and kidney disease, and recipes. If you already have a balanced diet for Iggy, I have some supplements from her website that I could send you; they're unused. I was working Jessie onto a cooked diet formulated by Monica but she had an acute attack of her chronic pancreatitis, so it looks like she has to stay on her old diet permanently. If you post on K9 Kitchen, she may offer some advice on Iggy's diet; I have seen her do that for other posters many times. She is very generous with her advice.

   If the kidney values in Iggy's blood work were elevated, maybe he didn't do a urinalysis because he could tell Iggy had kidney disease and he knew you had limited funds. It would have shown if Iggy had a urinary tract infection, if he was losing protein in his urine, and how serious the protein loss was. Poor little guy; I hope someone comes along soon with more advice.

My golden retriever, Honey qs drinking a lot more water than usual and my first thoughts were diabvetes or urinary tract infection.  I am diabetic and knew my waterconsujmption had about tripled (tho I have always drank lots of water) before diagnosis.

it turns out she had to much protien in her urine and in her blood.  i had her on taste of the wild high priarie, which is very hig protien , and also home cooked for her.  he put her on Science Diet KD (which apprently she really likes) and antibiotics.  She goes back in in 2 eeks for check.  On my own i started her on a cranberry cap each day. 

 when my golden boy, Buck  got hsi first and only UTI at age 10, he was on the KD for about 2 months, antibiotics for a while, and i put him on cranberry.  after all weard he went back to his regular food, but I continued thecranberry.  I lost him to heart attack at 12 1/2, which is a good life for golden.s Honey is adopted and is between 10 1/./ and 11, but her actions, energy level, etc are that of a 4 year old.  she shows no sign of any kind of ailment.  she is not drinking the amount of water she was, so hopefully we are getting her squared away.  but i will continue with the cranbeery no matter what.  I take milks thistle and cranbeery due to my 3 meds for diabetes and one for thyroid, and iron and b-complex for anemia.  some are not so great for liver and kidneys.

calliecritturs

Dawn, I so wish there was a TCVM vet near you -- the Chinese herbs tend to work *so* well on early renal failure. 

I would truly encourage you to use the Cell Food SAM-e in addition to the Denosyl.  Even just 4 drops twice a day in addition to the Denosyl should help get the liver numbers down.  You found it right??

I know all the trends say to give a higher protein diet for kidneys, and honestly, I've never found that all that helpful.  I wouldn't try to give a higher protein diet than the liver can handle.  That's just me. 

The only other suggestion I would have - particularly if you still want to try home-cooking -- would be to consult with someone like Monica Segal (http://www.monicasegal.com ) -- she will literally write a specific diet for you to make for Thel covering both situations.  But she'll make sure you are giving a balanced diet that takes both situations into account.

I am giving him both SAM-e products now.  I misunderstood and was giving him just the drops for a few days,but now he is on both.

I apologize, but it appears my husband misunderstood the doctor and one of the assistants said she didn't see anything about kidney issues in his file.  Not sure if the vet told my husband there is a chance it may happen or what.  But I am somewhat relieved that it appears we are only dealing with his liver.....which is enough for my sanity right now at the moment. 

I just checked out Monica's website, and right now at this moment I don't have $275 for a consult.....but I sure wish I did.  She must be extremely knowledgeable and I know she would be of tremendous help.  Maybe in another month or so I can pull it together.....thanks :)

jessies_mom

DawnG

I belong the the K9Kitchen.

 

  Do you have any of Monica's books? Optimal Nutrition has chapters on liver and kidney disease, and recipes. If you already have a balanced diet for Iggy, I have some supplements from her website that I could send you; they're unused. I was working Jessie onto a cooked diet formulated by Monica but she had an acute attack of her chronic pancreatitis, so it looks like she has to stay on her old diet permanently. If you post on K9 Kitchen, she may offer some advice on Iggy's diet; I have seen her do that for other posters many times. She is very generous with her advice.

   If the kidney values in Iggy's blood work were elevated, maybe he didn't do a urinalysis because he could tell Iggy had kidney disease and he knew you had limited funds. It would have shown if Iggy had a urinary tract infection, if he was losing protein in his urine, and how serious the protein loss was. Poor little guy; I hope someone comes along soon with more advice.

Hi Jessies Mom,

No I don't have any of her books yet because I just learned of her through this forum.  I guess we have been lucky not having any health issues with any of our dogs until now.  The book you mentioned sounds exactly like what I need, and I will check it out.

I am extremely frustrated with this new vet.  I talked to one of his assistants day before yesterday about a urinalysis and she said they didn't do one.  After speaking with the vet about some questions I had about a homemade diet and I wanted him to know I giving him milk thistle,  she called me back and told me he doesn't recommend a homemade diet and to keep him on the $30 (6#) hepatic dog food he offers.  He is not being very helpful.  She also told me he said there was milk thistle in this dog food.  I scoured the label, and unless it is posted under a different name, I do not see it in there.

I posted above that as of right now it APPEARS there is no kidney issue.  I don't know if my husband misunderstood what the vet told him the day he brought him for blood work.....will have to find out.  I have another Iggy named Lance going in for dental work on Thursday, so I am going to have my little list of questions ready to ask while I am there. I really need to get my head wrapped around a routine for Thel so I know he is getting what he needs.  Right now I feel like a fish flopping around without water :(

sandra_slayton

My golden retriever, Honey qs drinking a lot more water than usual and my first thoughts were diabvetes or urinary tract infection.  I am diabetic and knew my waterconsujmption had about tripled (tho I have always drank lots of water) before diagnosis.

it turns out she had to much protien in her urine and in her blood.  i had her on taste of the wild high priarie, which is very hig protien , and also home cooked for her.  he put her on Science Diet KD (which apprently she really likes) and antibiotics.  She goes back in in 2 eeks for check.  On my own i started her on a cranberry cap each day. 

 when my golden boy, Buck  got hsi first and only UTI at age 10, he was on the KD for about 2 months, antibiotics for a while, and i put him on cranberry.  after all weard he went back to his regular food, but I continued thecranberry.  I lost him to heart attack at 12 1/2, which is a good life for golden.s Honey is adopted and is between 10 1/./ and 11, but her actions, energy level, etc are that of a 4 year old.  she shows no sign of any kind of ailment.  she is not drinking the amount of water she was, so hopefully we are getting her squared away.  but i will continue with the cranbeery no matter what.  I take milks thistle and cranbeery due to my 3 meds for diabetes and one for thyroid, and iron and b-complex for anemia.  some are not so great for liver and kidneys.

Thanks so much Sandra, but it appears there was some sort of misunderstanding between my husband and the vet about his kidneys.  I will find out more when I go in there on  Thursday....

DawnG

After speaking with the vet about some questions I had about a homemade diet and I wanted him to know I giving him milk thistle,  she called me back and told me he doesn't recommend a homemade diet and to keep him on the $30 (6#) hepatic dog food he offers.  He is not being very helpful.  She also told me he said there was milk thistle in this dog food.  I scoured the label, and unless it is posted under a different name, I do not see it in there.

  I checked online and didn't see milk thistle in the ingredients either. Most vets won't agree to a home made diet unless they know it's been properly balanced, especially when the dog is ill. I posted a link in your older thread for a liver diet that Monica has on her website under Health Guides. Here it is again;     Kidney and Liver

  It's for a 25-30 pound dog so it may be close enough for Ollie. It's good to know that his kidneys are okay but if that's not causing the frequent urination you may need to have him checked for a urinary tract infection. I'll keep Ollie in my thoughts.

jessies_mom

DawnG

After speaking with the vet about some questions I had about a homemade diet and I wanted him to know I giving him milk thistle,  she called me back and told me he doesn't recommend a homemade diet and to keep him on the $30 (6#) hepatic dog food he offers.  He is not being very helpful.  She also told me he said there was milk thistle in this dog food.  I scoured the label, and unless it is posted under a different name, I do not see it in there.

 

  I checked online and didn't see milk thistle in the ingredients either. Most vets won't agree to a home made diet unless they know it's been properly balanced, especially when the dog is ill. I posted a link in your older thread for a liver diet that Monica has on her website under Health Guides. Here it is again;     Kidney and Liver

  It's for a 25-30 pound dog so it may be close enough for Ollie. It's good to know that his kidneys are okay but if that's not causing the frequent urination you may need to have him checked for a urinary tract infection. I'll keep Ollie in my thoughts.

  

  

many many thanks for re-posting the recipe link.  That sounds very doable for our old boy.  Until I can get all this established though we will have to buy one more bag of the hepatic brand dog food.  In the meantime I will look for other recipes so I can hopefully vary his menu.  He is not a fussy eater so it should not be much of a problem :)

We are going to have a urinalysis done asap.  Just working up the funds to follow through with possible antibiotics, etc.