Senior with Thyroid and Liver Issues

I'm no expert, so I have no advice on the food issue, but hope you can find something to make your boy feel better soon.

Deb W.

iluvjamison

I'm no expert, so I have no advice on the food issue, but hope you can find something to make your boy feel better soon.

 

Deb W.

Thank you so much Deb.  I hope so too.  He has been our prince since the day we brought him home, and he does not deserve to be ill 

I had a similar issue with an older cat, about 15 years ago.  Getting the thyroid issue under control will go a LONG way to controlling all the other stuff.  Having the thyroid out of whack throws of the entire body, as it controls so much. 

A low protein diet is normally helpful with kidney issues. A friend of mine has a female bichon with baldder stone issues.  After surgery to remove stones, and a short time on the prescrition diet for healing, my friend did tons of online research and tried to make a diet herself.  Six months later, the poor dog (and mom! we suffer too) had to have surgery again.  My friend had to capitulate and go with the script diet.  Dog has been fine for 2 years now.  So keep this in mind.

If you can't do the prescription diet ($30 for 6 pounds?! YIKES!) then search out a low protein food. Start with looking at the food you use, what is the protein on that.  You know that is too high.  Check the script food, and work to that percentage of protein.  

Halo Spot's Stew chicken formula is 28% protein; see what the prescription food is, and work from there. Halo is a plant based protein food, so that may be a good one to start with.  (http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/halo-dog-food-dry/  )

  Rather than searching each individual food's website, you can find the info you need here:

www.dogfoodanalysis.com

and here:

www.dogfoodadviser.com

Finally, don't forget anything specific to your breed (my breed don't do well with wheat ) and anything specific to the dog (I have one dog allergic to fish formulas).

On those 2 sites, the highest quality foods (6 star on the dog food analysis site) are grain free -- those are going to be HIGH protein.  So you can ignore those and go down to a 4 star.

((Hugs)) There are many here that have dealt with both Senior issues and health issues.  I am sure they will be along soon to offer their words of wisdom.  I just wanted to say glad you are here and will be sending your "prince" healthy vibes.

 Thank you Freedom.....seeing everything from different perspectives is always helpful....

All my dogs had been on Eagle Pack Hollistic food for several years, and although there is considerable grains in the formula, they always did absolutely fine on it.  One of my other Iggy's vomited and was sick at least one day per week, but that was the norm no matter what food he was on.  His system is extremely sensitive.  Othello's appetite has always been strong.  But upon learning that grains are not always the best for dogs, I recently weaned them over to Canidae.  It seems that was around the time we started seeing these issues with Thel, but I am sure it was coincidence considering his age.

The crude protein and fat in this prescription diet is 14% minimum.  I don't know much about it, but is animal protein harder on the liver than plant protein ?  I myself don't eat meat due to moral reasons, and enjoy plant based hot dogs, cheese, sausage, pasta and much more.  But since dogs are carnivores, I would think they need those enzymes from meat....even if it is meal as in the hollistic formulas.  Any education on this matter would be SO very welcome :)

Thank you immensely for those two websites.  I will definitely check them out.  But once I understand more about the animal/plant protein concept, I will get much more out of them and hopefully can make a more informed decision.

shadowsgin

((Hugs)) There are many here that have dealt with both Senior issues and health issues.  I am sure they will be along soon to offer their words of wisdom.  I just wanted to say glad you are here and will be sending your "prince" healthy vibes.

 

I really need those hugs Shadowsgin.....thank you.  It is so very hard to see your best friend decline :( 

The fact that he still has his voracious appetite I find comforting.  We lost a small Iggy about a year and a half ago to melanoma....and I struggled for months trying to find things just to make him eat.  Fish sticks, potato puffs, lunch meat, chicken patties, eggs, etc etc etc.  These were only temporary for a couple days until they no longer appealed to him and we had to start all over.  It was so heartbreaking to see him waste away.

The rep from Canidae did suggest feeding him 3 times a day instead of 2 because the plant based diet doesn't hold him as long....so I will do that starting today.  Anything to make him more comfortable.....

Btw.....the little guy in my avatar isn't my sick little buddy, but is a foster from the local humane society that we are going to adopt.  He is a 1 year old chi/jack mix who shows no health issues so FAR.  Fingers crossed.....

 First I am really sorry you are going through this! 

I am confused as to why they would want low protein for liver issues - I would want to question that personally. Kidney issues? fine but I am not getting the low protein = better for liver. I am even more confused as to why no meat protein, there are several vegetarian dog foods available so I would try one of those.

The thyroid supplement will help tremendously. My dog was hypo-thyroid at 3.5 yrs old and within a short period of supplementation he was doing better. He didn't have a lot of thyroid based issues though so that may have been a factor.  My point is that getting the thyroid levels right will truly help the liver (I've read in many places that hypo-thyroid dogs have funky liver values) and various other things too!

I would also start giving him some milk thistle to help repair the liver.

Quick look shows Natural Balance, Nature's recipe, avoderm and Wysong all have veggie foods. I would also imagine that since it is such a small dog you might be able to find a recipe for a veggie food that is OK for dogs with liver issues

Good luck and lots of hugs

kpwlee

 First I am really sorry you are going through this! 

I am confused as to why they would want low protein for liver issues - I would want to question that personally. Kidney issues? fine but I am not getting the low protein = better for liver. I am even more confused as to why no meat protein, there are several vegetarian dog foods available so I would try one of those.

The thyroid supplement will help tremendously. My dog was hypo-thyroid at 3.5 yrs old and within a short period of supplementation he was doing better. He didn't have a lot of thyroid based issues though so that may have been a factor.  My point is that getting the thyroid levels right will truly help the liver (I've read in many places that hypo-thyroid dogs have funky liver values) and various other things too!

I would also start giving him some milk thistle to help repair the liver.

Quick look shows Natural Balance, Nature's recipe, avoderm and Wysong all have veggie foods. I would also imagine that since it is such a small dog you might be able to find a recipe for a veggie food that is OK for dogs with liver issues

Good luck and lots of hugs

Thank you kindly KPWLEE......  I will find the milk thistle locally and get him on it.

I asked the same question about the low protein, and since my husband was the one who brought him in and picked him up he only repeated what he was told.  I don't know if it is due to his intensely increased urine output....maybe they are concerned about kidney failure.  I honestly don't know and before now I was not aware of this.  I will ask.  One thing he did say was the food needed to eliminate the copper which was a problem with the liver. Again....something I didn't know.

I went right to the Natural Balance website and found the vegetarian formula.  The "protein" is WAY below the one from the vet.  It is only 5% as opposed to 14%.  I also noticed how much more natural the ingredients were over the vet brand....which sounds like the ingredients of the harsh chemicals I have under my sink:

Water for processing, Ground Brown Rice, Cracked Barley, Oatmeal, Canola Oil, Carrots, Potato Protein, Tomato Pomace, Fresh Potatoes, Dehydrated Potatoes, Natural Flavor, Peas, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Natural Hickory Smoke Flavor, Cassia Gum, Carrageenan Gum, Sodium Chloride, Taurine, Potassium Chloride, Spinach, Parsley, Cranberries, Zinc Sulfate, Yucca Schidigiera Extract, Ferrous Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Sodium Selenite, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Iodate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D2 Supplement.

Here is the list from the bag of Royal Canin:

 Rice, chicken fat, soy protein isolate, ground corn, natural flavors, dried beet pulp, powdered cellulose, sodium silico aluminate, calcium carbonate, monocalcium phosphate, potassium chloride, vegetable oil, fish oil, DL-methionine, fructooligosaccharides, taurine, choline chloride, L-lysine, trace minerals (zinc proteinate, ferrous sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), marigold extract, vitamins (DL-slpha tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E)). 

Below this is a list of vitamins in trace amounts it looks like.....

I think I am going to try this Natural Balance vegetarian formula and see how it goes.  They also have a can version too which will help.  I know there is a supplement that dogs should get when they are vegetarian diets, but I can't remember what it is.

 Hi Dawn and welcome to the forum; I'm sorry your dear sweet boy is having problems. Here's a link to a liver friendly cooked diet formulated by Dr. Dodds;     Kidney and Liver

  One of the reasons fish is used for this diet is because it has branch chain amino acids, which are good for the liver. You want to avoid red meats because they are very ammongenic, increasing the workload on the liver.

  Did your vet suggest Sam-e? It is an antioxidant that has been shown in studies to help the liver. 

I am confused as to why they would want low protein for liver issues - I would want to question that personally. Kidney issues? fine but I am not getting the low protein = better for liver

 This brought me to a full stop.  I automatically switched to talking "kidney" because low protein diets is where that comes in, but I didn't even realize I changed from the Original Post of "liver issues!"  DUH!

BTW, dogs are NOT carnivores, they are omnivores.  They eat both meat and plant.  The only thing I know for sure they can not digest is corn.

Is "Missing Link" what you are thinking of as a supplement?  I don't know about vegetarian diets for dogs; but I have used Missing Link as a supplement.  Maybe that is the one you mean.

ugh -- I posted last night and it's missing. 

It's a much OLDER idea that dogs with liver problems need to be on a low protein diet.  Super low is NOT good. And I surely wouldn't go vegetarian -- that's likely to be more difficult for the liver to process.

 I did email you last night - did it get to you?

 If you can post your dog's bloodwork it would be helpful to see which levels are high and what everything else looks like.  (yes, I mean call your vet and get a physical COPY of the bloodwork and post it if possible)

Rather than all the emphasis on diet - I would seriously use first SAM-e and also large amounts of milk thistle to help detox the liver.  Mik thistle also serves as a good liver support (it helps the liver function).

 You can do SO MUCH with SAM-e and milk thistle.  I like CellFood SAM-e because it is a liquid and very very absorbable by the dog's body.  Milk thistle - you can start with capsules (because they are easy to get) -- but you want to give HIGH doses -- like 1 1/2 teaspoons (or more) of milk thistle powder (that's like 6 capsules emptied) twice a day.  You can get powdered milk thistle in bulk FAR cheaper (like a whole pound of organic milk thistle powder is about $20 -- if you get a bottle of milk thistle capsules it's about $18 - $20 and that's about an ounce and a half of milk thistle--- so the pound of powder equals something like $200 - $250 worth of capsules!!)

Vitamin Shoppe carries the Cell Food SAM-e -- you want to give about 12 drops twice a day in food (for an iggy)

Please email me -- i will be happy to help you.  I've had several dogs with liver challenges.

Freedom

 This brought me to a full stop.  I automatically switched to talking "kidney" because low protein diets is where that comes in, but I didn't even realize I changed from the Original Post of "liver issues!"  DUH!

BTW, dogs are NOT carnivores, they are omnivores.  They eat both meat and plant.  The only thing I know for sure they can not digest is corn.

Is "Missing Link" what you are thinking of as a supplement?  I don't know about vegetarian diets for dogs; but I have used Missing Link as a supplement.  Maybe that is the one you mean.

Freedom....I know dogs do eat both, but several articles I read stated they do not handle grains well, and the higher end dog foods have no grains.  I personally wasn't sure, but that is what I was understanding.  The Eagle Pack food they were on had grains so to be on the side of caution I slowly switched them over to the non-grain Candiae. Good to know they weren't in peril all these years :)

Yes I think Missing Link is the one I was trying to remember. I heard it mentioned a couple times but since my dogs weren't on vegetarian diets I didn't retain it.  Thanks :)

calliecritturs

ugh -- I posted last night and it's missing. 

It's a much OLDER idea that dogs with liver problems need to be on a low protein diet.  Super low is NOT good. And I surely wouldn't go vegetarian -- that's likely to be more difficult for the liver to process.

 I did email you last night - did it get to you?

 If you can post your dog's bloodwork it would be helpful to see which levels are high and what everything else looks like.  (yes, I mean call your vet and get a physical COPY of the bloodwork and post it if possible)

Rather than all the emphasis on diet - I would seriously use first SAM-e and also large amounts of milk thistle to help detox the liver.  Mik thistle also serves as a good liver support (it helps the liver function).

 You can do SO MUCH with SAM-e and milk thistle.  I like CellFood SAM-e because it is a liquid and very very absorbable by the dog's body.  Milk thistle - you can start with capsules (because they are easy to get) -- but you want to give HIGH doses -- like 1 1/2 teaspoons (or more) of milk thistle powder (that's like 6 capsules emptied) twice a day.  You can get powdered milk thistle in bulk FAR cheaper (like a whole pound of organic milk thistle powder is about $20 -- if you get a bottle of milk thistle capsules it's about $18 - $20 and that's about an ounce and a half of milk thistle--- so the pound of powder equals something like $200 - $250 worth of capsules!!)

Vitamin Shoppe carries the Cell Food SAM-e -- you want to give about 12 drops twice a day in food (for an iggy)

Please email me -- i will be happy to help you.  I've had several dogs with liver challenges.

Callie,

No email came through...

I have a copy of the bloodwork from the vet.  He also put him on 2 prescriptions, Sam-e (90 mg) & Levothyroxine (0.2 mg).  We just received the Costco sale flier and right on the cover is Sam-e tablets and fish oil.  Talk about timing ! :)   I am also searching for a bulk milk thistle vendor online.  The Costco Sam-e is 400 mg.  Is that too high a dosage ?

I will list the high enzymes from the blood work.  Please let me know if you need anything else....

                                     Level         Normal

ALK. Phosphatase         3855          10-150

ALT (SGPT)                   358            5-107

GGT                              52              0-14

TC02 (Bicarbonate)         28              17-24 mEq/L

Triglyceride                    157            20-150 mg/dL

T4                                  .5              1.0-4.0 ug/dL

Eosinophil                       0               2-10%

Absolute Eosinophil         0                100-1250 /uL 

jessies_mom

 Hi Dawn and welcome to the forum; I'm sorry your dear sweet boy is having problems. Here's a link to a liver friendly cooked diet formulated by Dr. Dodds;     Kidney and Liver

  One of the reasons fish is used for this diet is because it has branch chain amino acids, which are good for the liver. You want to avoid red meats because they are very ammongenic, increasing the workload on the liver.

  Did your vet suggest Sam-e? It is an antioxidant that has been shown in studies to help the liver. 

Thanks Jessie's Mom :)  I have copied the recipe in case I can't find any existing diet that will help him.  I am sure Canidae or Eagle Pack offers a good fish formula.  Once I get it all understood and crammed into my brain, I will look for what may work best.

I also posted below that the vet has him on 90 mg Sam-e now.