Seizures [Liesje]

Seizures are pretty common in Labs.  I doubt the lump has any bearing on the seizures but the vet would be the best source of info concerning that and setting up a treatment protocol for the seizures.  The Lab I owned who had seizures was started on pheno barbitol and then switched to potassium bromide.  Vets usually ask owners to keep a detailed log of seizure activity to determine whether to medicate and which drug to use.  I'd advise her to have a thryoid test done also.

If her dog is put on medication, it's very important the dosing is done exactly as prescribed and not changed without consulting the vet.  My dog lived a long seizure free life after diagnosis and medication. 

First, I will suggest a full panel of bloodwork, either through MSU or Dr. Dodds.  It may or may not show anything related to the seizures.

Next, I highly recommend a book called "Canine Epilepsy" by Carolynn  Levine.  It is very easy to read and extremely informative.

Last, I will recommend that your friend keep a log of the seizures.  Where, when, length, are very important that could give a vet an idea of triggers.

Triggers can be anything from food to environmental, or something going on internally.  It is the hardest condition to diagnose.  The lump could be causing an upset in the dog's system or not.

If the dog starts having clusters, it is very important to get veterinary help ASAP because this can be a life-and-death situation.  Clusters in canines are similar to humans, so I'm sure you can understand what I am talking about.

Above all, if the dog continues to have seizures regularly, it is important to use what meds are available to get the seizures to stop.  Some will argue that the meds used to control them are addictive and not beneficial.  Under a vet's care, the phenobarbitol can be adjusted, same as potassium bromide.  Both build up in the dog's system and must be slowly increased or decreased as necessary.  Some dogs cannot use the phenobarbitol, so that is a consideration. 

Acupuncture and herbs can be helpful, but these options do not work in all dogs (Bear was one that the herbs made it worse).

The period after the seizure, your DH is spot-on.  The dog may be thirsty, hungry, disoriented, and tired.  Some recommend giving the dog a bit of pancake syrup or vanilla ice cream following a seizure to get the glucose back up.

Good thoughts for your friend.  This can be scary, I know.  Each seizure dog is different, so encourage her to get more than one veterinary opinion if finances allow.

I have no idea if the lump is related.

This site has the best information possible 

http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/site_map.htm

Jackson gets grand mals and petite mals. 

An ice pack across the lower back during a seizure is supposed to either reduce the intensity or length. It doesn't hurt, so I do it. (His back, not mine  )

He gets haagen daz vanilla ice cream as soon as possible after a seizure if we're home. I have honey packets in my purse in case we're out. 

Once he's fully alert, he gets half a meal of kibble. He did just run a marathon afterall. He may or may not be sleepy afterwards. 

It's between her and the vet what medication to use. Jackson is s-p-e-c-i-a-l and the potassium bromide didn't help him in any way. He's solely on the phenobarbital. The vet and I agree 2 seizures a month *is* control for Jackson. Regular bloodwork is necessary!! A thyroid test would be good too!

The rest is basic living with it, day in and day out. 

Is this a multi-dog household?? 

Lies, everything everyone has said is gold.

I was able to control Kee Shu's with herbs, and so far we are able to with Tink.  But rarely can you avoid meds totally even *if* the herbs work  for the dog, but you don't avoid proper diagnosis. 

What 3girls said about Jackson is critical -- EACH individual (dog or human) has their own "normal".  You control it as much as possible however you do that and it's critical that you follow veterinary guidance.

It *is* normal - just as your husband said -- for them to be extremely tired after any sort of seizure.  I know Megan is another who always keeps vanilla ice cream in the freezer for after one of Pirate's seizures.   The blood sugar takes a huge hit. 

What Tina said about clusters is huge -- it's one of the biggest & best reasons to keep your vet in the loop all the way -- some folks keep either valium (which is a controlled substance) or herbs like valerian or passionflower (whatever your vet recommends) on hand to reduce the potential for clustering.  (it seems to happen more in dogs for some reason, and I don't have the information to support that -- but I've noticed it in dogs a lot). 

I also want to say that just to mention "herbs" may be super misleading -- the herbs that Megan and I use on Pirate (and on my old peke Kee Shu r.i.p.) aren't off the shelf nor readily available.  There are two Pirate uses and the one he had in common with Kee Shu was **very** like phenobarbitol.  These are prescription only herbs -- nothing readily available -- ONLY thru a vet who does TCVM.  But even then, you don't just substitute one for the other!!  There are times you can reduce the amount of pheno or potassium bromide and substitute one of the herbal prescription-only meds, but it has to be done carefully and by a vet (and usually you can't wean them totally off the pharmaceutical -- sometimes, but it's all carefully watched.  Sometimes the best use of the herbs is to keep a dog whose seizures are escalating "level" rather than having to use more drugs.

There are also a lot of newer seizure drugs out there now beyond pheno and Kbr (potassium bromide) but I'm told they tend to be expensive.  But some are reported to have fewer side effects (no personal experience).

I just don't want a lurker to walk away from this thinking they can give a dog something like valerian root and get rid of seizures.  ANY dog who has seizures needs to be under veterinary care.

Logan is an only dog. 

I've passed on several bits of info here that seem to have a common thread.  She liked the idea of giving him a treat like ice cream or honey, I called it the "silver lining" (she is very upset over this).  There's always the issue of cost and having to spend hundreds or even thousands on diagnostics and still not have an answer.  There may be some environmental change and she'll never see it again, who knows.  I am trying to convey the complexity of these issues and huge range of causes; she may never get an answer, or a solution.  My husband has only ever been diagnosed with "idiopathic epilepsy" which is a fancy phrase for "you have grand mal seizures and we have no idea why" and he's been on some pretty hardcore drugs for almost 8 years.

 Is Logan crate-trained? When they have to leave him home alone, he's much safer in a crate, in case he seizes.

Jackson had a waking seizure once, he happened to have been in the bathroom. As he was trying to come out of it, I had to hold him to keep him from head-butting the toilet.

I've spent an amount we won't talk about. We'll never know what caused the seizures. His seizures started around 6 months of age, they call that "idiopathic" also. We're resisting the other meds, yes, the cost is a factor. But my boy was a walking zombie on the potassium bromide, now that's not normal for *that* medication. It's actually not normal at all. (I did mention he's s-p-e-c-i-a-l right?)

The bloodwork is important, whether he goes on medication or not.

Keeping a journal is super important!! For some, they figure out triggers this way. 

I guess I was a bad dog mom because I didn't spend thousands looking for an obscure reason.  Mostly in dogs, it's idiopathic.   I did bloodwork but nothing else.  I know how upset your friend is because at first I was very freaked out but as we got the seizures under control, I also calmed down. 

I did have another dog, a very long time ago, with seizures that we were never able to control without medicating him so much he was a zombie.  We didn't have the resources at that time to take him to a vet school and specialists were virtually unheard of then.  We did take him to the University of Texas Health Science Center and a doctor (human neurologist) there suggested a few things but nothing controlled his seizures.  We had him euthanized.  This dog was a distemper survivor and it was suspected that could have been the cause. 

JackieG

I guess I was a bad dog mom because I didn't spend thousands looking for an obscure reason.

Nonsense.  You do the best you can with the resources you have at the time.  It doesn't make you a bad dog mom in any way, shape, or form.

Having spent well over $3000 on Bear and euthanizing him anyway, if I had to do it all over again, I would do things differently, not because I didn't love him, but I am still digging out of the debt I created. 

The owner's quality of life is as important as the dog's.

ETA: Phenobarbitol increases the dog's appetite any time the dose is changed and they literally will eat anything.  If the dog is a Lab, they may be used to that to an extent, but it will be 1000 times worse.  Bear literally started chewing up and eating his bed, the carpet, he started counter-surfing.  It was nuts.

Thanks, Tina.  I really don't think I was a bad dog mom to any of my dogs.  I shouldn't have worded it that way but thanks for your words. You're right in that we all should do the best we can and what we are comfortable doing.  Sorry, Lies for derailing this for a few posts.  I do hope for the best for you friend's dog.

I'm passing along any pertinent info but just don't see them spending more on even more bloodwork is all, but I passed along the recommendation about the bloodwork, thyroid, and asking about those two drugs.  It's not my dog, not my call.  They love their dogs like children but can't spend more than a few hundred at a time and even that is stretching it.  He's already having the lump surgery which they can't afford, got charged for the vet visit and and bloodwork after the seizure.  It's already added up.  I'm sure their comfort level is a lot higher than the actual bank account :(  I'm in the same predicament, we've never been able to afford the types of tests that might give us a more conclusive answer about DH's epilepsy.

Tina, thanks for the heads up.  He's a free reign dog that nabs something off the counter every so often so I'll be sure to mention this if her vet doesn't.  He's home alone all day.

ETA:  oops I see Susan mentioned this as well, thanks!  I'm reading threads backwards!

 It should only cost about $100 to have the thyroid panel.  Worth it IMO.  Plus, some dogs with kidney issues have seizures, so make sure no kidney problems.

My cat has grand mal seizures.  The symptoms and treatments are pretty much the same as they are for dogs except its a lot less common for cats to have this problem. 

I just went very conservatively with just some basic bloodwork and x-rays to make sure nothing blaringly obvious was causing the seizures.  Blood sugar is a big one they check because low blood sugar can cause them. 

Then I just went with the pheno to see how well that worked alone.  And, so far so good.  We do have to get bloodwork done every three months or so to make sure the amount she's got in her is at a therapeutic level.  But, other than that I didn't opt for any extensive tests.  They had offered MRI, etc.  I didn't want to go that far. 

All the symptoms you describe all sound normal to me too.  The dilated pupils happen in my cat sometimes before she has one.  They are definately like that for awhile after also. 

They probably will put your friends dog on something as hes had two in a short period of time.  But, the good news is they usually do really well with the meds and they work really well too.  But, it does require very precise dosing. 

I usually use all soft dishes or paper plates around her.  We've had a few times where she's broken things.  And, I bought a really nice crate set from Pet Dreams that has a padded bumper that goes all around the crate to protect her from getting hurt if shes in there.  (I crate her 2xs a day for meds because I have many other cats that are curious)

 One thing your friend might want to do is keep a video recorder handy. This way, if there's a next time, she can record his seizure. That will tell the vet a lot about what's going on.

JackieG

I guess I was a bad dog mom because I didn't spend thousands looking for an obscure reason.  Mostly in dogs, it's idiopathic.   I did bloodwork but nothing else.  I know how upset your friend is because at first I was very freaked out but as we got the seizures under control, I also calmed down.