BREEDING question (Liesje)

Granted I am coming from Hounds, however I would refuse to use this dog.  First, if he did carry it she would be  infected. Causing issues for her and the puppies. Second Why on earth would ANYONE want to use an animal who may be that aggressive? Surely there are nice males out there who have a balanced temperament ? We will not use any dog in our breeding program who has not passed the American Temperament Test, ( ATTS) or at the very least I would want the dog to have his CGC along with clear health testing and titles.The bitch is being put at risk in more ways than one. Having seen traumatized and injured bitches and dogs in several breeds where one animal was so difficult to handle, it boggles my mind that any one would take the risk. The breeding pool should never be so narrow that someone would feel they had only one choice to use.  She is a young Bitch, the owner is being responsible from her end with testing and temperament. Why risk the bitch, your reputation and possible future litters? Another thought,   If the male refused to be vetted how would you expect to control him when presented with a girl in heat?  He is not going to settle down and become easy going.  Since she is a Maiden an over eager. aggressive male could be terribly frightening for her making future breedings problematic on her end. My girls are my companions first and last. I don't take chances with them. I have to have ALL testing on both parties for all RR concerns, I'd rather use a lessor known male who had a sunny out look on life than even the number one dog if there was a temperament issue.  We breed for Temperament First, Health Second and then the Show Ring. Our last litter gave us 5 stunning show prospects, 3 of whom are being shown, 2 were altered as agreed for companions.  It doesn't matter how gorgeous a pup is if you can't enjoyably share your life with them and they are not healthy.  My line is known for their incredible instincts and ability to work with fragile people of all ages. That is not an accident, it is remaining true to our vision of what makes a great dog.

Thanks Bonita, I don't think she's going to consider it without the negative test result.  I think she just wanted to make sure she didn't sound crazy for requiring it.  I've run into a lot of things where breeding is "do as I say, not as I do" like on a web site a breeder will insist on all health clearances but in reality is not testing for bruc. or assuming because a stud is popular and other people are using him he must be OK.  We wanted to make sure this is one of those tests that breeders are actually doing/requiring, we just assumed it was a no-brainer and were surprised by the resistance or dismissal.

These are working GSDs and this male brings high social aggression which is actually what we are looking for with this bitch.  He is extremely powerful and dominant (though when you look at him and meet him he acts like a giant goofball).  He is safe with his handler, *not* handler aggressive.  I have no idea if he's really aggressive with the vet or not.  I hear so many people insist their dog is such a terror at the vet, my friend used to be so scared about getting her dog's nails trimmed when he was almost 2 and she'd never done it but while we were talking about it, I grabbed my clippers, reached down, and trimmed her dog's nails.  Or, maybe he is aggressive at the vet but so are a lot of dogs, that's what muzzles and sedatives are for.  We are not looking to breed really social, happy-go-lucky house pets. I do not know whether the stud is dog aggressive but I've never heard that he is or observed him to be.  I do ATTS and CGC with my dogs but there are a few test items on these tests that are counter-intuitive to the goals of this breeding and these tests are of little to no value to the people who would be interested in the breeding.  "Balanced" temperament is a loaded statement that will vary breed to breed and goals for the breeding.  Number one we are looking for strong working prospects.  Aggression when properly channeled at the appropriate threshold is absolutely correct.

Unfortunately brucellosis is not as rare as people are telling your friend.  It is suspected that one in ten dogs in the U.S. is infected.

If your friend really wants to use this stud, would testing of a couple of females that he has recently been with suffice?  That is risky, but better than no testing at all.  Artificial Insemination (AI) can also lessen the risk. 

Considering the seriousness of brucellosis (treatment usually unsuccessful; transmissible to humans; aborted litters), I would not want to risk my female without a negative test from the stud. 

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2102&aid=404
"It seems that over the years much has been written on brucellosis in breeding dogs, but despite it all, infection rates may run as high as 8-10%. That is right, it is suspected that one in ten dogs in this country may carry Brucella canis.

Brucella canis also poses a significant public health hazard since it is transmissible to humans, especially those handling aborted fetuses. Humans may develop a serious liver impairment or arthritis.

Medical advancements in controlling this disease have been few and far between. Contrary to some opinions, it is a very difficult disorder to treat, and in most cases, treatment is unsuccessful. A prevalent attitude among many people is that "if my dogs get it, then I will treat it." This is a serious mistake because you probably will not cure it, and if you do, the individual will probably be sterile or be a poor breeding specimen. ...

Artificial Insemination (AI) can lessen the risk of Brucella transfer at breeding. While rare, transmission of Brucella canis to a bitch can occur during AI, especially if infected semen is used."

I woudl do an AI...AT THE VET...no way in heck I'd allow him physical contact with my bitch. NOT. Worth it. And yeah..if the stud owner is someone who cannot even control his own dog for a breeding OR swab? NEXT!

Wow, Janet, makes me want to run out and get all my dogs tested and they don't even breed!

I sincerely doubt she'd entertain the possibility of AI.  Isn't that expensive, requiring a reproductive specialist?  I don't know if it's a breed thing but in the past several years I can't think of one breeder I know of that tried AI with GSDs and had it work (though in some these cases it was probably older sperm, but in some the studs were alive and well just not in close enough proximity for breeding).

I'm not a huge fan of the stud anyway (has nothing to do with whether he is capable of being vetted), don't like the looks, "meh" on the pedigree, and not super impressed with how he works (oh he works all right just not really my type).  She could actually get a nice pedigree going if she bred to Pan in a year ;)  I would suggest Pan's sire (she's met him) but that puts the linebreeding a little close for our taste.  Anyway, kinda disappointing since she's been planning this for almost a year and this stupid issue is holding things up but whatever.  Again, I have no reason to believe the dog is dangerous as far as the actual mating/tying and find the owner's excuse kind of ridiculous but you get these old-timers that have decades of experience with these dogs, some of the best trainers, best helpers/decoys, best people and putting together a solid pedigree and they have some really silly hangups about non-issues.

Liesje

find the owner's excuse kind of ridiculous but you get these old-timers that have decades of experience with these dogs, some of the best trainers, best helpers/decoys, best people and putting together a solid pedigree and they have some really silly hangups about non-issues.

I find it best to avoid people like that as much as possible. Lots of the times they are the ones that have the biggest issues in their lines simply from a lack of perspective other than "I know all, and my dogs are the absolute best".

See, I tend to have tunnel vision for the dogs.  At least in our state, some of the absolute best dogs (as far as breeding and pedigree...often the best breeding dog is not necessarily the podium dog) are owned by some really quacky people.  Often the people who are the best as far as marketing themselves and their dogs aren't really bringing a whole lot to the table as far as the end result of the breeding - will this yield correct dogs that work?  There is one guy that is kind of an odd one but hot dang does he know his dogs, lines, pedigrees.  I would buy a dog from him sight unseen but he is not a people-person and is not the one traveling all over the country giving seminars and trialing his dogs, not that top competitor that everyone is ga-ga over but not all the money or competitions in the world can substitute his knowledge and experience.

Anyway, I just heard back from my friend.  She contacted a breeder that we (as well as the entire working GSD community) trust who also had their eyes on this stud and they said no they would not use him without the test.  She also asked her good friend that breeds and exhibits and different breed and she said no too. She contacted the stud owner to explain why she's not going through with it and he tried to talk her into it but she's not going to do it without the test.  Back to square one!....

it's really not worth the risk. You mess up with regards to Brucie, once and you lose your bitches breeding potential altogether and then you really ARE...back to square one!

I've got another stud I want her to inquire about.  Experienced stud, awesome dog, great pedigree (himself and combined with her bitch), never heard anything bad about the dog or the owner/handler.  I know she's disappointed but I don't want her to limit herself based on location.  There are some other nice males nearby but (IMO) the line breeding would be too close.  These days it's hardly a question of whether there is line breeding but how close it's going to be!  I tend to look at the dogs "on paper" and not get too excited over a dog that I saw train a few times and was impressed with how he "looked" (either in training or his physical looks/conformation).