licking and biting

Benadryl is 1-2 mg per pound for allergies - not 25 mg!!  If the airways are swelling one can use 3mg/lb. 

There are so many ingredients in this dog food that it would be hard to even guess what he is allergic to.  The three in blue would be my top picks. 

With four rice ingredients I would bet that there is more rice in this food than venison meal.

Nutro Adult Venison Meal and Whole Brown Rice

Ingredients:  Venison Meal, Whole Brown Rice, Ground Rice, Rice Bran, Rice Flour, Pea Protein, Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Plain Beet Pulp, Oatmeal, Natural Flavor, Soybean Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Sunflower Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Sodium Bicarbonate, Potassium Chloride, L-Lysine, Salt, Choline Chloride, Egg Product, Dried Kelp, Taurine, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate, Biotin, Potassium Iodide, Niacin Supplement, Copper Proteinate, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Vitamin A Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Rosemary Extract.

Have you ever tried putting Gibby on a raw diet or a homemade diet?  It really is not rocket science!!

Good book:

Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs by Lew Olson
http://www.amazon.com/Raw-Natural-Nutrition-Dogs-Definitive/dp/1556439032

EEKS!  What a mistake THAT was!  After 4 years of talking to clients on the phone at the vet clinic that I worked at and telling them 1 mg per pound ( when they forgot what the dr. told them ) why did I say that?  I knew better...knew he should be getting 4 according to his weight and not the 2 the vet prescribed. GEESH..thanks for correcting that.   For sure don't want anyone to read and do what I wrote!

Yes I did have Gibby on a home made diet 2 years ago and no not raw.  Can't do that.  But on home made he was doing terrible. I was spending hours in the kitchen looking beef, chicken, rice, oatmeal, sweet potatoes, and tons of veggies and when I was finished it was enough for 3 days, 3 1/2.  He was skinny as could be too. Then he got a UTI and we found his PH was really really high. I'm not saying home cooking caused it..but it didn't help him. He was having stomach problems which is my reason for cooking for him.  The vet convinced me that what he was eating was not working and go to kibble, ANY KIBBLE.   That was not for me..but I did go to Taste of the Wild Venison, it worked well for Gibby, he was doing much better and picking up weight.  But then he started drinking tons and tons of water and vomiting a lot which was not one of his problems. I switched ONE MORE TIME to the Nurtro and he has been doing well since.  Nutro is not my favorite company..but I can not deny how well Gibby has been doing on it for over a year.  

The reason I think this is not food is because he has been doing well on it, and this problem just started. He has also taken to be pretty barky when he hears a noise and all... he is pretty hyper dog.

dyan

Then he got a UTI and we found his PH was really really high.

A UTI alone can drive up the pH, so I would only start considering diet if the urine pH was high without a UTI. 

dyan

I was spending hours in the kitchen looking beef, chicken, rice, oatmeal, sweet potatoes, and tons of veggies

Dogs are carnivores.  Their digestive systems are the same as that of a wolf and too short to digest much in the way of grains, fruits, and vegetables (even cooked ones).  Yes, some dogs will eat small amounts of grains, fruits, and vegetables - especially if they are sweet.  However, a dog's system does not require nutrients from those items and will expell a large portion of them as waste.  That is why kibble-fed dogs have big, smelly poops while dogs fed only whole prey (or something approximating whole prey) have small, firm poops. 

dyan

The vet convinced me that what he was eating was not working and go to kibble, ANY KIBBLE.

Because he was not gaining weight or because he was still having stomach problems or both? 

dyan

Nutro is not my favorite company..but I can not deny how well Gibby has been doing on it for over a year.  

Unfortunately, a year is enough time to develop a food allergy.

You said that you "can't" do raw.  That could mean a lot of different things.  Has Gibby ever eaten any raw meat?

   Dyan;  It may very well be environmental allergies; the pollen count has been very high for several weeks. Jessie used to lick and chew her feet until they bled before starting allergen immunotherapy. This has been an awful summer for allergies and she started getting itchy in July so the vet increased the frequency of her allergy shots; she's getting them every two weeks instead of once a month.

  It sounds like Gibby has a nasty yeast infection from the licking, so you may need to see your vet for something to treat them with. For example, he may need an antibiotic plus a topical treatment that's effective for yeast. It's a shame that it's a long weekend and he can't see a vet until Tuesday. You could try the black tea soaks that Callie often  suggests and see if they help. I used to put boots on Jessie's feet to keep her from licking them, or maybe you have a cone?

 There's nothing wrong with feeding Nutro; Jessie has been doing great on the Venison and Rice for over a year. At this time of year, the licking is more likely to be caused by the high amount of pollen. (((hugs)))

It's allergy Dyan -- paw-licking is classic.  But allergies will **Make** them nervous.  Being itchy will make anyone nervous!  It really increases anxiety.

Frankly Benedryl in such a low dose is not going to do a solitary thing.  Vets just don't like to deal with the way people react when they say four 25 mg pills for a 100 pound dog.  People freak out without considering what the dose *should* be.  Just give them to him Dyan.  And twice a day is minimal -- the actual 'dose' is typically 3 times a day according to the vet PDR.

Claritin isn't bad.  But Tavist is often REALLY good for dogs.  It's dosed differently than Benedryl -- you have a Pill Book Guide don't you??  For Tavist it probably would be something like 2 of the pills.  But they come in two sizes if I recall.

L-Theanin is still something opinions seem all over on -- and it also seems like one of those things that some folks want to make a ton of money off of.  As Julie says I'd sure use the human supplement -- what this other place is selling sounds exhorbitantly expensive.

It's not a relaxant -- it's supposed to affect anxiety instead.  So it's more a training aid than anything.

First of all thank you to everyone that responded...I do appreciate it a whole lot.  First..Janet I have no access to any kind of meat other than the grocery store.  Reading up on raw feeders..so many have contacts with people or businesses for good prices. I do not. Not just that..I do not have a freezer and won't have one, have no room for one. So I am limited as to what I can buy. 

Yes...the vet convinced me he was not doing well because he was so skinny and actually not well.  He did have the very high PH and UTI.  BUT I had been giving him tons of Pepcid...which I found later could cause a high PH.   He was doing aweful...I did not need anyone to tell me that quite honestly.   Gibby has been a high stressed dog from the time I got him at 7 weeks old....and in the back of my mind I always wondered if it was stress causing a lot of what I thought was digestive problems. It seemed he would have most trouble after stressful situations.    Gibby gets raw bones every week...and I occasionally give him raw chicken necks and when we have them turkey necks.  I actually fattened up his skinny body on raw burgers at lunch time.

Janice, 

 Dyan;  It may very well be environmental allergies; the pollen count has been very high for several weeks.

You know, I think it was the end of last summer his skin started to do some crazy stuff too.  He has ears that I need to keep really really clean because they get really smelly...but this is the first time that they tested positive for yeast. I suppose yeast in the ears can sure mean yeast problem in his body.  Was reading on the Great Dane Ladys website about yeast last night...she has a really really big aricle on it.  Almost sounds kind of hopeless. Kind of.

Callie: It's allergy Dyan -- paw-licking is classic.  But allergies will **Make** them nervous.

For sure. BUT... he was licking his chest way before his feet. I mean he often licks his chest..of course he has that Great Dane big deep chest that when he sits straight up or lays with his head back....that chest goes way out! And then he licks.  BUT he licks metal things including my buttons if convenient.  A couple of days ago I put my hand on what he was licking so he started licking my arm.  Kind of neurotic if you ask me.

L-Theanin - It's not a relaxant -- it's supposed to affect anxiety instead.  So it's more a training aid than anything.

Thats what I want it for. He does have separation anxiety...trying to fit him with a Thundershirt but it just shifted way too much when he walked around...so I am trying to find him spandex that will work. Found one at the local Goodwill store the other day. He is not afraid of thunder....( I'm surprised ) but he is excitable, barky and jumpy.  He has all the syptoms of SA.      Your right...at $40 for 20 days the stuff that the behavior dr was selling was way too expensive.  I can actually get it on line for 32..but why do that when I can get it from a vitamin company.

dyan

I actually fattened up his skinny body on raw burgers at lunch time.

Yep, raw meat and fat will put pounds on them - to the dismay of some owners.

dyan

I do not have a freezer and won't have one, have no room for one.

That would sure make feeding raw pretty darn expensive - especially for such a large dog.  I'm sure he enjoys the raw meat/bones that you can provide him.

In case you want to investigate making some additional small raw purchases, there are some raw food groups in Ohio listed on this site:  http://www.dogaware.com/diet/rawgroups.html

Some raw groups tell each other about store sales.  However, the Columbus group is currently closed to new members (due to illness) and the Cleveland group has had no activity since 2008.

dyan

A couple of days ago I put my hand on what he was licking so he started licking my arm.  Kind of neurotic if you ask me.

Maybe neurotic, but maybe he just liked the salt on your skin.

Do yourself a favor before you go through umpteeump bags of kibble and lots of expensive raw meat, a ton of pills, and lots more anxiety (which only makes dogs more anxious).  Have the dog TESTED and find out what he is allergic to.  Most allergies are environmental, either contact allergies or inhalant allergies.  Dogs can have food allergies, but they are less common.  The problem is that when they have food allergies, it could be to something that you have been feeding without incident for years - the dog just finally became intolerant enough to it to produce symptoms.  Yes, testing is expensive, but it's really the only way to figure out what the irritants are, and they can be multiple.  I hate to tell you how long the list of plant allergies was when I had Maska tested.  But, once I knew, I took him out of the pen he was in and put him in one that had less of the "bad stuff" in it.  He was a lot more comfortable.  Also, if you are feeding a regular kibble, try going to a grain free.  One of the most common allergens is grain mold.

Janet :  

Maybe neurotic, but maybe he just liked the salt on your skin.

I'm sure the salt is good. But as I said, one day I had his collar laying on the carpeted steps ( I take it off him when we are not home ) I had to run to get a blood test, and when I came home he had licked the metel buckle so much that the whole red collar was wet and it faded on the white carpet.  He must have been licking it the whole time I was gone which was probably just about an hour or so.    Now when I try to tell him not to lick his feet he starts on his chest...which he does lick on and off anyway.  Of course he usually has food on it..lol!        I will check out your link and thank you!

Ann: Having Ollie that had such major skin problems I have read so much and between that and his skin doctor who also said that very few dogs are allergic to food. Worst part is most are allergic to things you can't do anything about such as Ollie who was allergic to grass and dust. Ha....my two grown sons lived together,,how much dust do you think was in THAT house?  LOL!     I do believe that last late summer he was having problems, but nothing that I ever considered an allergy thing....perhaps it was and this year its worse.   Also.......since he is a hyper dog..it does'nt help at all.   

I did read that licking themselves is an anxiety thing also...and knowing him, how can I not think about that factor?   

Today we are suppsed to go to a golf outing, he will be here much of the day by himself, having someone come here to feed him lunch. I will be back after golf for a while and then gone for the cook out. I worry about him spending the day licking himself.

dyan

Worst part is most are allergic to things you can't do anything about such as Ollie who was allergic to grass and dust.

   This time of year, grass allergies aren't as much of a problem as weeds, and the worst one is likely to be rag weed. This link has the pollen counts for Dayton, Ohio and is a good resource for figuring out which pollen(s) may be bothering him;

    Soaking his feet in the black tea solution several times a day may help. Bathing is recommended because dogs absorb allergens through their skin.  We use a 3D Ultra Allergen filter and keep the windows closed, which helps our allergies too.  For pollen and dust, frequent vacuuming helps. I also have a Hepa vacuum, which traps smaller particles than a regular vacuum. Has your vet mentioned Zyrac (may be Zyrtec) ?  It works better for Jessie than Benedryl. I get the generic version at WalMart. Jessie is 60 pounds and gets one a day; the vet said she can have one and a half if necessary. I tried all of these things except for the tea soaks because I didn't know about them at the time. It wasn't enough for Jessie and she suffered year round, so I had her tested and we started immunotherapy. They may be enough to help Gibby, if his problem is caused by allergies.

    Not everyone views yeast the same as  the Great Dane Lady;  March 2004 Newsletter from Monica Segal  

  " In dogs, the most common form of yeast is called Malassezia. This is not systemic! The skin is one organ. Regardless of whether we see yeast in the ear or on the belly -- we're looking at skin. A systemic problem involves the "system" i.e. many organs within the body."

  A little further down in the article;

"Feeding more or fewer carbohydrates does not impact yeast overgrowth unless the dog is allergic to a certain carbohydrate. The allergy is the underlying cause of the yeast problem – not the carbohydrate itself. In this case, a certain carbohydrate is no more the cause of a yeast problem to a dog that tolerates this source than lamb would be the cause of yeast problem to a dog tolerant of lamb.

Systemic yeast and Candida have been blamed for everything from diarrhea to cancer. Systemic yeast in dogs is so rare that it makes medical reports in journals! In cases of systemic yeast, the dog is so sick that we're not talking about an inflamed ear or an itchy paw."

Very interesting Janice, thanks.  I didn't read the MS article yet..I will later. Actually just came home from a golf outing to take Gibby out and feed him...will be going back to eat soon.  Was at a friends house earlier whos Bichons back feet look a lot like Gibbys...she is on Temerol P ( I'm sure its spelled wrong but don't have time to look it up ) and some kind of lotion and the dog is mostly cleared up now.   

Darn.I have some left over from Bubby but afraid to give it to him. I really don't want him on it anyway...but the looks of it make me think first thing Tues we will be at the vet.

Texted my vet about giving G the Tramadol ( I thought I had the temerol P ) that I have from Bubby...she said I can but if its lick granuloma issue its not going to work.

 I don't know...didn't give him any.... maybe tomorrow morning.

jessies_mom

"Feeding more or fewer carbohydrates does not impact yeast overgrowth unless the dog is allergic to a certain carbohydrate. The allergy is the underlying cause of the yeast problem – not the carbohydrate itself. In this case, a certain carbohydrate is no more the cause of a yeast problem to a dog that tolerates this source than lamb would be the cause of yeast problem to a dog tolerant of lamb.

So this would mean if its not food allergy but rather something outside such as grass, ragweed, etc etc... it causing yeast!  

But according to MS yeast is always on the skin ( I thought that is what I read ) therefore they would always have it if tested for it?

Yeah...systemic yeast is sure a controversial subject...been reading this kind of thing for years about humans, some doctors think its the cause of all problems while other think its hogwash. EEKS...so which do you listen to?

The biggest problem I have right now is keeping him from licking...he does it slowly now and quietly...staring at me the whole time.  I have been using sour apple when necessary.  Although I read that lots of dogs like it or learn to like it.   There is nothing that he is not going to chew off if I try to cover it, that I can tell you.  6 of 1/ half dozen of the other in stopping him from licking or chewing a sock off.  EEKS!