Crystals and Protein in urine

Hi Jen, I don't have any experience with crystals and protein in the urine with the dogs.  But, I just wanted to encourage you to "open the mind" to a RX food which may or may not include Hills.  Here's why I say this:

Again, completely different health issue...but my geriatric Lab, Buddy started having some severe mobility issues about a year or so ago.  Although I do not feed raw or home cook his food...I am a bit of a food snob.  My vet tried to get me to try Hills JD for a long time as he felt Buddy would benefit from this particular food for his specific issue.  Finally, after months of encouragement...I decided to try it.

Long story short...a year ago, Buddy was tripping and losing footing constantly.  Today, he has shown HUGE improvements.  I'm so happy for my old man that I tried the prescription food.  Such a difference for his quality of life.

I hope that someone here has expeience with Bailey's condition.  Keep us posted.

Jen,

I have no personal experience with anything else than the very occasional UTI but I would recommend reading this : http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidney.html . You will find info not only on what the different tests mean but also on diet and supplement as well as a plethora of links. I have used this site as an information source on other problems and have found it thorough.

The ultrasound idea sounds pretty valuable to garner more information on Bailey's problem. I hope you  can find out exactly what the problem is so that Bailey can get the care and diet she needs.

Nat

baiceyjo7

I have a ten year old airedale terrier, Bailey, that has crystals and protein in her urine.

Identifying the type of crystals will be the first order of business:  http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2114&aid=400

baiceyjo7

She has been ruled out for any type of UTI.

A sterile urine culture was done?

Informative sites:
http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/bladder-stones-crystals/  (note the book advertisement)
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/bladder_stones.html
http://www.dogaware.com/articles/wdjstruvites.html
http://www.dogaware.com/articles/wdjcalciumoxalates.html
http://www.dogaware.com/articles/wdjotherstones.html
http://www.lbah.com/canine/urolithiasis.htm
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/K9Nutrition/
http://www.dogaware.com/articles/wdjotherstones.html#lowprotein (side effects of low-protein diets)

What are BUN and creatinine levels from the blood tests?  Unless BUN is over 80 mg/dL and creatinine is over 2.5 mg/dL, I doubt the urine protein levels are anything to worry about. 

Dang ... Jen it's 1:00 a.m. and I just took an hour to type a LONG post to you and lost it grrr.  (Folks, I know Jen from the IMHA thread so I know the meds Bailey is on)

The short answer -- get your TCVM vet on board with diet help.  There are GOOD Chinese herbs she'll know about for kidney support AND that can help a great deal here (Billy was on them -- we knew the IMHA had triggered *some* kidney damage).  Likely this is exacerbated by the cyclo and other IMHA drugs.  Billy had very high microalbuminaria forever after getting off the big drugs like cyclo ... but we kept it liveable and functional with the acupuncture and kidney support from the herbs and supplements.

In fact, I screwed up big time last summer -- we switched calcium sources and I wasn't dosing the new one properly (I was being WAY too generous) and the vet asked me to switch up with we were doing and had me move both Billy and Tink from D-Mannose (to help curtail the ever-present threat of UTI) to plain old cranberry.

Because d-mannose is so much more effective I wound up using too much cranberry which normally wouldn't be a big deal **Except** I was using too much calcium.  The two paired was disaster and Billy **and** Tink went from having struvite crystals and really high alkaline urine (in March) to OXALATE crystals and too acid urine by JUNE.

Oy Vay!!  When I found that I freaked majorly (I'm sure you can't imagine that!)  But we corrected the calcium, switched back to d-mannose and both were on some additional renal support and problem solved.

THAT IS NOT TYPICAL -- I'm simply saying it's easy to goof occasionally.  But Janet's right.  First you gotta know which you have -- struvites crystals (easier to get rid of) or oxalate crystals (tend to be more breed specific - deal-able, but a bit tougher than struvites to get rid of **if** breed-related). 

If you want we can chat on the phone -- you've got SO many issues going on there that you'll need vet help I think to correct diet.  It can be done --

The other alternative is to seek help from someone like Mordanna or Monica Segal.  Monica is incredibly good at stuff like this and she **has** an IMHA dog herself so she's no stranger to it.  I know she's also done a ton of breed-specific research which would be helpful.

Mordanna is superb as well - I just don't know her (and I've known Monica for years -- we both used to free-lance for the same site years ago and we've kept in contact since and she helped me with Billy's diet when he first got sick as well).  Monica's diets tend to be futzy and very very calculated -- GOOD but not simple.  I know Mordanna was actually an I-dogger back when it WAS "I-Dog" and a lot of folks on here use her diets -- she's also *very* good.

Give me a holler on the phone if you want.  I wish I still had all I'd typed.  I'm just too tired to re-type it all *tonight* (duh, Callie -- watch where your fingers are going on the keyboard! *sigh*)

Thanks Callie for your post, but I think you are confusing Josey with Bailey.  I have three dogs, two airedales (Bailey 10, Kacey 8) and then Josey (2) is my welsh.  This is Bailey my ten year old that is experiencing this issue.  Thank goodness it is not Josey...she has plenty of her own issues right now.

I was thinking I could contact my TCMV about her and see what she recommends.  I would love more info about these two people you speak of for diet recipes.  I enjoy cooking for the girls and much rather do a home cooked specialty diet than a packaged.  ( I, too, am a major food snob!)  If I could get by only cooking for the girls, I would.  Unfortunately, there just isn't enough time for that in each day.  They are currently eating Acana brand food so they are definitely getting a good quality food.

I am curious if Bailey would benefit from both the xrays and the ultrasound.  It seems somewhat redundant in my opinion.  Thoughts?

Janet, thank you for your posts.  I do not have exact numbers, but all of her labs are in the normal range.

CoBuHe

Long story short...a year ago, Buddy was tripping and losing footing constantly.  Today, he has shown HUGE improvements.  I'm so happy for my old man that I tried the prescription food.  Such a difference for his quality of life.

  Barbara; I'm so glad Buddy's doing so much better. And you're right; sometimes prescription foods are the best option. 

baiceyjo7

.  I would love more info about these two people you speak of for diet recipes.  I enjoy cooking for the girls and much rather do a home cooked specialty diet than a packaged.  ( I, too, am a major food snob!)  If I could get by only cooking for the girls, I would.  Unfortunately, there just isn't enough time for that in each day

  This is Monica Segal's website;   Welcome to Monica Segal

  You can schedule a diet consultation with her, but one of her books may be all you need. It's this one;   Optimal Nutrition  

  I have this book and there is a chapter on urinary tract stones with sample diets for struvite and oxalate stones. Jessie has chronic pancreatitis and I used a recipe designed by Monica for her and she did very well. It's not as hard as you may think; I prepared a week's worth of food, divided it into seven equal portions and put it in freezer bags. I set the next day's food in the bottom of the fridge to thaw before going to bed.

Thank you everyone for the valuable websites, names, and advice.  Bailey had her ultrasound yesterday and luckily there were no signs of any tumors or masses and there were no stones in her bladder.  However, she does have early stages of kidney diseases.  The vet gave us some canned food to try, Royal Canin and Purina brands.  I am going to try them both and see how she does.  She is a very finnicky eater and I worry about getting her to eat.  I am also going to talk to our TCMV to see what kind of things we can do from an eastern standpoint.  If anyone has any other advice for me, I appreciate it greatly.

 Jen & Bailey

baiceyjo7

However, she does have early stages of kidney diseases.  The vet gave us some canned food to try, Royal Canin and Purina brands. 

What test values were abnormal?  Were the phosphorus levels high?  Have you tested for a UTI, Lepto, Cushing's, Addison's, or a tick-bourne disease (treatable causes of kidney problems)?

Dietary changes are not needed in early kidney diseases.  Typically commercial "kidney" diets are low protein and the need for that type of diet has been debunked (see second website below).  In advanced renal disease a dog needs a low phosphorus diet to keep the animal comfortable.

Protein does not damage the kidneys and low-protein diets for a dog can easily lead to malnutrition problems.  A moderate-protein, low-phosphorus, high quality diet can reduce the phosphorus levels of advanced renal disease without malnutrition, but a lot of vets are still operating on the old low-protein theory.

Please see these websites: 
http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/is-it-necessary-to-reduce-protein-in-the-diet/
"Oftentimes dog owners are told to reduce protein in the diet if kidney disease is suspected. They are often told reducing protein will prolong the health of the kidneys. But new studies have found this is not exactly true. It isn't reducing protein that helps, but rather reducing the phosphorus (a part of protein) levels that help. However, reducing phosphorus isn’t helpful until the renal values in the blood work show elevations in creatinine and BUN. A general rule of thumb is when the BUN values go over 80, and creatinine levels are over 2. Along with these two levels, indications of the kidneys inability to handle phosphorus also results in an elevation in the phosphorus level. At this time, reducing phosphorus will help with comfort as less phosphorus will be filtered through the kidneys. High phosphorus foods include bone, organ meat and egg yolks.

So before jumping the gun and reducing protein (necessary nutrients for good renal health), check the blood work to determine when you might start needing to reduce the level of *phosphorus*. For dogs being fed a raw diet, lowering phosphorous levels might mean removing bones and organ meat and adding carbohydrates for fiber (firm stools).  For those feeding home cooked diets for your dog, it may mean removing organ meat and egg yolks and using low phosphorus carbohydrates. Don’t reduce the *quality of protein,* simply reduce the level of phosphorus.

Important Note on Kidney Disease and Diagnosis:

Should your dog receive a kidney failure diagnosis, always run tests for problems that could cause ‘acute’ renal issues (treatable). Understand that ‘old age’ does not cause renal failure. Some tests to consider include: sterile urine culture for urinary tract infections, leptospirosis blood titer, blood work and ACTH stim test for Cushing’s and Addison’s Disease and a blood test for Tick Borne Diseases. All of these can cause elevations in BUN, creatinine, low specific gravity, and protein in the urine."

http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidneyprotein.html   - sites numerous studies

baiceyjo7

Bailey had her ultrasound yesterday and luckily there were no signs of any tumors or masses and there were no stones in her bladder. 

Have the type of crystals been identified?

Janet, thank you for your reply.  I have been and continue to be very, very frustrated with how things are being handled.  Bailey has been seeing a different vet than normal and she will be seeing the same vet from now on that my two year old welsh terrier sees with her PRCA.  So I am hopeful to learn more as to what EXACTLY is going on. 

I just received Bailey's labwork from last week today and can finally report some actual numbers.  Her BUN is 31, Creatnine is 1.4, pH 8.0, and specific gravity 1.042.  Her protein level is 100 from her most recent UA. I don't have a clue as to what is normal and I need to do some research.  The UA also mentioned trace crystals but are not actually identified.  When she had her abdominal ultrasound done, there were no stones noted anywhere.  I don't really understand why she has crystals then...another question for the other vet. I do not have a phosphorous level at all but will be asking about that too.  On Saturday, I was literally told she has early kidney disease, here are two cans of renal food, and she should be rechecked in one year.  I am certain I was treated this way because the clinic was 40 minutes past closing and I was still waiting to see the vet from a 11:10am appointment. 

My understanding from reading on the internet is as follows.  It appears to me that what may be going on with Bailey is called glomerulonephritis.  Most often, again from what I read, there is an underlying disease that may be contributing to the condition.  Bailey had a 4DX test done to check for lymes and heartworm....I believe that is what it is called....does this include ALL tick borne diseases?  Again, another question for the vet.  She also had a complete chemistry panel done and other than the BUN being 1 point over norm, it was within normal limits.  She has had multiple UAs, urine culture, and protein/creatinine ratio as well.  The most significant finding from all of those has been the consistent amounts of protein.  From what I read, spilling of protein into the urine causes damage to the glomeruli in the kidney which eventually causes permanant damage.  The sooner you can stop the spillage, the better the outcome.

We checked her blood pressure and that was also normal.  She does have a mitral valve issue but has been monitored for this and her heart is fully compensating the issue.  IShe has not had an ACTH stim test done to check for Addisons, and I don't know how they test for Cushings.  Her thyroid levels have been normal so far this year, running at about 2.5.

 I have an appointment tomorrow, thank goodness, with this other vet that has been treating my PRCA dog and is absolutely wonderful.  I probably made the mistake by not seeing her in the first place.  Bailey is completely asymptomatic and despite the fact that she will be 11 in September, she is relativley healthy otherwise. 

Thanks again...if anyone can shed any more light on this or has dealt with glomerulonephritis I would love to hear from you.  Keeping our fingers and paws crossed that we can get to the bottom of things more tomorrow. 

Jen & Bailey

OOps -- sorry, I really didn't realize you had THREE!!  So yes, I was confoosed!!

**Definitely** see the TCVM vet - in **early** renal failure there are wonderful wonderful herbs you can put them on -- Foxy was on two called "left side replenishing" and "right side replenishing" and in the last 3 years of his life his kidneys did NOT fail further at all!! 

However -- in Oriental stuff, there **IS** definitely diet stuff you do -- kidney friendly diets (different from the low phosphorous stuff) and kidney support (the Standard Process "Renal Support" is darned good stuff -- it helped Billy a *great* deal -- he's another who was in early renal failure for like 3 1/2 years and we held it back incredibly well)

baiceyjo7

The most significant finding from all of those has been the consistent amounts of protein.  From what I read, spilling of protein into the urine causes damage to the glomeruli in the kidney which eventually causes permanant damage.  The sooner you can stop the spillage, the better the outcome.

AGain, that's where the TCVM really helps incredibly -- by improving kidney *function* you prevent more damage.  Billy's body tried to spill more and more protein and to a degree that's the progression but it's also what you try to do with the herbs.

baiceyjo7

  When she had her abdominal ultrasound done, there were no stones noted anywhere.  I don't really understand why she has crystals then...another question for the other vet

The vet needs to call the lab and ask why the heck weren't they identified. 

However -- you can have crystals and not stones (because stones are formed *from* crystals - like a pearl is formed from that tiny bit of sand/dirt in the clamshell, stones are formed around crystals **I think**).  But generally crystals lead *to* stones if they aren't resolved -- and that can be pretty easy or it can be a pain in the butt depending on the crystals.

baiceyjo7

Most often, again from what I read, there is an underlying disease that may be contributing to the condition.  Bailey had a 4DX test done to check for lymes and heartworm....I believe that is what it is called....does this include ALL tick borne diseases? 

No -- the 4DX only checks for the main stuff like Ehrlichia, and a couple of others.  There IS a big tick "panel" that can be done -- that checks for every tick disease under the sun, takes about a month to come back but has to be done specially.

But there are other diseases, most notably (and you won't want this to be so) auto-immune kidney diseases.  ugh. 

baiceyjo7

She has not had an ACTH stim test done to check for Addisons, and I don't know how they test for Cushings.  Her thyroid levels have been normal so far this year, running at about 2.5.

Cushings is similar -- it's a blood test done after fasting, and then redone a few hours later.  Thyroid -- did you have it sent to Dr. Dodds or to MIchigan State?  You want a breed-specific panel done there because an off-kilter thyroid can keep you from getting any sort of victory in any other area.

Generally they have to "rule out" Cushings and Addisons just as a matter of course.  The tick disease would be the easiest to treat probably but I'm not sure how likely it is. 

 Holler at me phone if you need me to bounce things off of -- your TCVM vet should be able to give you better input and at least a whole different point of view.  Good luck!!