The cure causing a side effect?

    • Gold Top Dog

    The cure causing a side effect?

    So yesterday morning T-Bone got his steroid shot for flea allergy dermatitis. It's doing the trick and he isn't itching at all, thank goodness, but he seems off. He's usually bouncy, happy, dorky, and he follows me everywhere and I can't even go to the bathroom by myself, lol. Today he seems, not to add a human element to it, depressed. He's mopey, and more than sleepy he just sorta lays there. He perks up for his walks (not to the usual extent though) but goes back to being lethargic and spacey. Royce tried and tried to get him to play until T-Bone showed him his teeth and Royce wandered off. Very much out of character. He doesn't follow me around and is so not excited for a belly rub. He also got a Rabies shot yesterday. Can steroids be causing the personality shift (I read they could?) and if so is there anything I can do to make him feel wiggly and happy again?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Am I understanding this correct....he's gotten 2 doses of Advantage, a dose of Frontline, used permethrin in the apartment, used an antibiotic spray, THEN gave a steroid shot followed up with a Rabies shot???  That is one heck of an onslaught to the system.  Please tell me you have had bloodwork done prior to the shots???

    NOW, if I were you I'd be going to the vet SOON....like within an hour or so.  I'm a paranoid old fart and have seen far tooooo many autoimmune cases that show the exact same symptoms on far less toxins.  Have them do bloodwork just in case.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Permethrin has been used in the apartment, the frontline has worn off by now and he is on Advantage. He gets Betagen topical spray for the hot spots, he recieved a Rabies and steroid shot. I guess I don't understand what sort of blood work would have been needed and the vet didn't mention any? Tongue Tied T-Bone has never reacted to any chemical or vaccine. He follows commands, eats, drinks, and eliminates fine... and I was told I could even add more to it like Capstar or I could go ahead and use Trifexis (I chose to wait) My husband has the jeep and won't even be home til very late (or early, however you choose to say) so leaving is not an option. I am not trying to close my mind to potential problems but I just don't understand what they are. Can you link me to something about it?

     

    ETA I know it seems like a lot of chemical and medication but he is in misery and nothing has stopped him from chewing himself raw. This is the first time he's had relief for more than a few hours. I thought the advantage had started working but he went right back to chewing.

     

    EATA looking through overdose or toxicity to too much chemical in the bloodstream I see a recurrent theme of vomiting, droolingm shaking, tremors, weakness, seizures and excessive sleeping. T-Bone is lethargic it seems but displaying nothing else.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Beejou
    the frontline has worn off by now and he is on Advantage

    Didn't you mention in the other thread that you gave him the frontline after the advantage or perhaps I was reading it wrong. 

    Beejou
    he recieved a Rabies and steroid shot. I guess I don't understand what sort of blood work would have been needed and the vet didn't mention any? Tongue Tied T-Bone has never reacted to any chemical or vaccine.
    This vet should of ran bloodwork before even giving the cortisone shot.  I know that many here will likely say that it isn't needed but dogs can and do die from simple steroid shots....either directly or indirectly.  The chances are LOW but still there.  Not to scare you.....just saying that most vets don't do this one simple precautionary step to ensure proper renal and hepatic functions BEFORE administering any sorts of steroids. 

    Not to mention the fact that they decided to give a RABIES shot AFTER giving an immune suppressing cortisone shot.  These shots work by weakening the systems defences which are haywire and causing the itching.  Giving a rabies shot afterwards, IMO, is reckless and careless on the vets behalf.  AGAIN....this is only MY opinion and I'm known as a worry wart who takes all precautions...LOL.

    How does his gums look?  Nice and pink?  Might be a reaction to the rabies shot.

    ETA:  Lethargy scares me!  Anyone who's dealt with an AIHA dog know why!

    • Gold Top Dog

    If I typed Frontline after advantage it was definitely in error, but I don't *think* I typed that. Either way, Frontline hasn't been used in quite awhile as it's completely useless for our particular situation, sadly, though it did seem to do the trick up north.

    Now I'm starting to wrap my brain around why the Rabies was a bad call after the steroid. If anyone had mentioned a blood check before the steroid I definitely would have done it.. but apparently it's very common and two other dogs were in for the exact same thing while I was waiting. (A JRT and a bully mix) Apparently it is a huge problem down here this time of year.

     

    There's definitely no harm in being cautious, it can prevent a lot of heartbreak down the road. I appreciate hearing every aspect to using products, negative as well as beneficial.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Beejou
    He also got a Rabies shot yesterday.

    Grrrrrr!  Vaccines should only be given to healthy dogs - not to dogs in the middle of an illness, expecially not an immune system problem.  What was that vet thinking??

    I sure hope the problem is just that the vaccine is making him feel yucky!!  Is he running a fever? 

    Did you have them put the vaccine vial label in T-Bone's chart?  That would really help if you need to report a vaccine reaction or if you need to investigate whether the vaccine batch was bad in some way. 

    Did you get the package insert for the vaccine?  Different manufacturers use different preservatives and you should note the one used in the vaccine.

    NOTE:  Avoid vaccines with Thimerosal - contains mercury!!  That preservative has been removed from children's vaccines, but I am not sure it has been removed from all flu shots.  I know it is still in a lot of canine vaccines.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Beejou
    If I typed Frontline after advantage it was definitely in error, but I don't *think* I typed that

    My bad....i just misread it!  When you said you tried frontline i just thought you meant after the advantage.  lol...not hard to tell i'm not thinking clearly tonight!  or lately for that  matter.

    Beejou
    If anyone had mentioned a blood check before the steroid I definitely would have done it

    Bloodwork before a steroid shot isn't that important....just something I'd do if it were me.  The rabies shot though I'd definetely get bloodwork prior.  Most vets don't do this though...it's just not a common thing.  The thing with giving the rabies shot is you want a properly (non-suppressed) immune system so that it fights the shot and creates proper antigens towrds it.  The allergy shot weakens the immune system.

    Beejou
    There's definitely no harm in being cautious, it can prevent a lot of heartbreak down the road
    LOL....again...please remember that this is just me being overly cautious and paranoid.  I'vebeen in paranoid/stress mode lately and not thinkly too clearly.  Perhaps some others might have some advise. 

    If he continues to be like this then by all means you should take him to hte vet for a check.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Johnny, I know you've been so stressed with little Tessy and I can't imagine how it feels. I want you to know we're still praying for you here and T-Bone and Royce send kisses to you two. You've probably had to do a lot of research on possible concerns because of the treatments she needs and I do appreciate learning anything new, regardless of how slim the chance is.

     

    By the way, his gums look good and when pressed snap back to a fleshy pink virtually instantly. No problems there. He's also alert and letting me know when the neighbors come and go, which is probably a good thing, even if he doesn't feel like hanging out with me or Royce for any other reason right now.

     

    Janet, it never crossed my mind to ask what type of vaccine or anything else it was (heck when I got my own post exposure Rabies treatment I didn't even ask what was in it, I just assumed it wouldn't be bad) I can call tomorrow and ask and report he's feeling a bit down.

    I do not have a thermometer but he doesn't feel unusually warm, his breathing is normal and he seems easily handled and comfortable. Just seems like he's feeling depressed, I know that isn't very descriptive but that's what it is.

     

    ETA: the only thing it says about the Rabies shot is "first three letters of manufacturer PFI"

    • Gold Top Dog

    Beejou
    Johnny, I know you've been so stressed with little Tessy and I can't imagine how it feels. I want you to know we're still praying for you here and T-Bone and Royce send kisses to you two.

    John has had *two* dogs with IMHA (immune-mediated hemolytic anemia) which is the same thing Billy had.  Once you've had an animal with an auto-immune disease you look on vaccines with a totally different eye.  It wouldn't be typical here to do bloodwork *before* a rabies shot -- John's right, it would be wise, but it's not typical here at all.

    However -- Janet is TOTALLY right -- I can't believe they gave him a rabies shot (let's talk about the shot that has the worst long-term problems, right up there with lepto? *sigh*) -- they should *not* have done a rabies vax with his skin in the shape it is.  *Any* steroid lowers the immune system -- and to have his system hit with that *and* rabies all at once is a big huge thing.

    I'm going to guess that he's likely feeling puny because of the *rabies* shot more than anything.  They are tough to take ... and particularly when he's already feeling sore from the skin problems. 

    This isn't something *YOU* would know ... you will next time, but most vets here tend to want to "get it done" while you're there -- thinking they are saving you money by "doing it all at once".  They get the vax done (which helps it look good to the county) and don't then have to worry that you won't come back for the rabies later. 

    The rabies might make him react and feel unwell -- but you wouldn't see IMHA *that* quick usually.  It takes **at least** two weeks after a vaccine (and vets don't even want to admit that it can take up to 2 to 4 months) to see something like IMHA.  YOu will honestly need to be watchful given that his body now has so much to deal with. 

    See -- when a vaccine is given, the body is "exposed" to a few cells of that disease.  The body then "conquers" those few cells and in response the body manufactures "anti-bodies" against rabies. 

    What occurs with auto-immune stuff is that the body begins to generalize.  Rather than the immune-system turning off and then on and then off again in the face of a threat (and then the extinguishment of that threat) -- the body doesn't turn the immune system off.  INstead the immune system looks around in the body for something *else* to attack.  In the case of vaccines the body sees those anti-bodies (which are baby red blood cells at that point but which have some of the characteristics of the disease cells) and the body -- because the immune system is still on high alert -- says "Hmmm -- those look TOO MUCH like those bad diease cells -- gotta kill THESE too!!"

    From there the steps are easier -- once the body begins killing it's own red blood in the form of antibodies, then it turns against other reticulocytes (baby red blood cells).  Then once it kills normal red blood cells it kills adult red blood cells.  IMHA is now in full throttle.

    The good thing is they only gave ONE vaccine.  Don't let him have ***ANY*** other vaccines (in fact, given that he's likely to need steroids occasionally, I wouldn't vaccinate that boy at all without titers first -- altho you can't titer for rabies). 

    Are you in a county that requires rabies annually??  ugh.  Orange does, Seminole (me) doesn't.

    WAtch him carefully -- particularly if the lethargy lasts into tomorrow.  "lethargy" is never ever a good sign.  It's probably the one sign that will turn a seasoned dog owner into full blown panic more than any one symptom.  Sometimes it can just mean they don't feel good.  But too often it can be the harbinger of something bad. 

    Beejou

    By the way, his gums look good and when pressed snap back to a fleshy pink virtually instantly. No problems there. He's also alert and letting me know when the neighbors come and go, which is probably a good thing, even if he doesn't feel like hanging out with me or Royce for any other reason right now. 

    I do not have a thermometer but he doesn't feel unusually warm, his breathing is normal and he seems easily handled and comfortable. Just seems like he's feeling depressed, I know that isn't very descriptive but that's what it is.

    VERY good observations.  **Really** good things to check!  You rock!  Those were exactly the right things to check! 

    btw Get a cheap Wally-World thermometer and label it "DOG" -- reminding family members that means this thermometer has been in the part of the dog where the sun don't shine!! ergo **LEAVE ALONE** lol ...*grin*  It tends to be far easier to keep track of the thermometer labeled "DOG" than you'd ever believe LOL

    Beejou
    the only thing it says about the Rabies shot is "first three letters of manufacturer PFI"

    That's Pfizer and if I recall they do use Thimerisol -- they don't say so on the label (it is apparently an ingredient in an ingredient).  Merial is the only one I know of that doesn't use Thimerisol.  There's a lot of linkage out there if you want to check it out.  I found this easily:  GSD Board link

    John and I are just cut from a different bolt of cloth here -- John's been thru it twice - both with Sadie (who didn't survive IMHA) and now Tessy has lymphoma (possibly caused by the drugs used to treat the IMHA). 

    You're gaining valuable experience here.

    Question:  Are you still SEEING fleas?  You live in an apartment, which tends to be an impossible situation.  But do remember -- that what has occurred with T-Bone can happen from just ONE bite from ONE flea who bites and then dies!  Just the spit from one frigging flea can cause months of trauma to the skin of a flea-allergic dog.  It doesn't take a "flea infestation".  It really doesn't.  Just one bite will make them miserable for months and months.

    And you honestly can't always prevent it.  T-Bone's fortunate in that shepherds tend (this is just my own personal experience -- this is NOT any data I've picked up from anyplace for sure - just my own observation and conversation with other owners) not to *get* fleas as badly as some other breeds.  REally often fleas are extremely attracted to immune-suppressed animals.  It's capricious tho -- I've had dogs who just never EVER seemed to get a flea. and others who you'd have thot had out a flea-welcome sign.  Then I've had others and if you combed both dogs equal amounts of time you would get very nearly the same number of fleas on Dog 1 as Dog 2.  There's no real rhyme nor reason.

    I would ask the vet to make sure the lot number from the vaccine both goes in his record there and they also give it to YOU so you can keep it in his personal file.

    I'm sorry you got hit with this -- poor T-Bone feels yucky enough without more.  Did you see where they gave him the shot??  Massage that several times a day -- it helps distribute the vaccine and also helps him not get a lump at the shot site.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Callie, thank you so much! A very informative post! I have the serial number of the vaccine if that is at all helpful. I am not sure if Brevard county needs an annual Rabies, but I was told since he had his Rabies young he needed another one because they say they're good for three years but truth is they're usually good for one (he had the three year vaccine) This is what the tech explained to me while she gave him the injection in the rear leg. She felt between the shoulders would make him feel aggressive or defensive because she'd be over him. He did seem to accept it well, he put his paws on my shoulders and stood the whole time. I am not feeling a lump but maybe it just hasn't shown up yet. The vet also told me that having him neutered would help cut down on skin issues which I do not believe is true. It's a low cost clinic (FL aid to animals) and they really push the spay/neuter agenda, which is good, but I don't think it would help. I've seen no evidence either way. Regardless I still did have a good experience at this office and T-Bone was actually wanting to give kisses, play with the other waiting room dogs (of course we didn't let him) and take treats. Not his typical attitude at the vet. Thus far I haven't seen another flea but I haven't sat down tonight with a flea comb and gone through both dogs yet. I'll have to take a look. If I cannot stop every single one from coming in what should I do? I wish I could just pick up and go back to Washington where none of this was a problem sometimes. On a side note I called DH and told him about T-Bone's woes, and he came home with a bag full of dog goodies he dumped out for the boys. Tennis balls, a squeaky duck, lots of treats and chewies. T-Bone got very excited and shredded a tennis ball, so THAT'S good (lol) and did some circles with Royce sharing the duck. Though he's back to resting, he loved nosing through the stuff for awhile.
    • Gold Top Dog

    Willow would sometimes get diarrhea and be a bit sleepy after rabies shots.  Thats probably whats going on.  I'd say if it continues much past tomorrow call and let them know.  Agree with the others they should have had you come back for it.  But, now you know for next time. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    willowchow
    be a bit sleepy after rabies shots.  Thats probably whats going on.

     

    I've seen this too in some dogs.  I wouldn't get too freaked unless he quits eating or it persists more than 24 hours (lethargy).  Don't always assume zebras when you hear hoofbeats.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Jamison was "off" for about 2 months after he got a steroid shot.  I think it was called Vetalog or something like that.  Never again.

     

    Deb W.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Beejou
    but I was told since he had his Rabies young he needed another one because they say they're good for three years but truth is they're usually good for one (he had the three year vaccine)

    That's pretty much horse pucky ... When a vet gets a vaccine typically they don't have another ever!  They may do a titer (yeah, vets will titer themselves and then not recognize it for dogs??) -- What's actually true is the reverse.  The one year shot is the same as the 3 year shot -- meaning it's only labelled for one year but is *good* for three years.  My own vet told me a practice he used to work at routinely *always* made clients get the one year literally to ensure people would have to come back annually knowing it was still protecting.  Rabies shots tend to be the ones linked to sarcoma, etc.  You may want to search on here for Kris Christine's posts on the Rabies Challenge testing that's being done and why Dr. Schultz was led to head up that study.

    Beejou
    I am not feeling a lump but maybe it just hasn't shown up yet.

    You don't *want* it to -- and no, typically it shows up a couple of months later, but it's those lumps that can sometimes lead to problems.  I don't think it matters a whole lot where they give the shot -- but it's a good practice to massage it for a few days after to disperse that vaccine.  It's less likely to cause a problem that way.

    Beejou
    I'll have to take a look. If I cannot stop every single one from coming in what should I do?

    Not much more than you're doing ... flea allergy dermatitis is one of *the* saddest things, particularly in a place like Florida (or Texas or other states where they are epidemic most of the time).  Often it's those extra little coping mechanisms -- like combing them daily when it's a problem, or spraying them before they go out, etc. -- those silly extra things can often help you avoid the worst of it.  Tea tree oil after those baths (in the final rinse) will also discourage fleas a good deal. 

    You can't overwhelm them with chemicals -- but essentiall you have to watch for the *first* sign of a problem.  Often if you can take them in very very early in an outbreak you can mitigate the worst of his suffering.  I've seen dogs with their whole backs a big scabby mess. 

    This can also be a place where homeopathics can help a lot.  If you know darned well you pulled a flea off *today* then a day or two of using "apis" (I can teach you a bit about homeopathy if you want) can help draw out the body's own antihistamine response to a sting or bite and help them react less *if* they've been bitten.  It's not anything heavy duty and doesn't create side effects like sleepy-ness but it can really help.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I've never used a steriod shot, but when Coke was on prednisone he was NOT himself.  He was even more lazy (and he's like the laziest dog ever!), he was very mopey, preferred to hide in our dark, unfinished basement alone for hours.  He didn't want to come up on the bed.  After he was done with the pills it took a good two months for him to return to normal.