High liver values - meaning??

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    • Gold Top Dog

    High liver values - meaning??

     My friend's doxie has high liver values - the ALT and another one

    The vet is ready to run off about $500 in tests.  

    I'm wondering what this might indicate

    Sadie (doxie) is not showing any signs of a health issue at this time

    • Gold Top Dog

    Like all bloodwork "high" liver values tend to be dependant on what OTHER values look like.  That's not a cop-out answer - it's true.  But it makes it complicated.

     The ALT and AST often "pair up" in MY experience (Billy and Tink *both* can run high there -- not astronomically high but well over 'norm';)  In Tink's case, in particular, it tends to be a bile duct build-up HOWEVER, that's usually the diagnosis of my holistic vet (and after a short course of dandelion herb - which is typically used for bile duct problems -- the values zoomed right straight back down to where they should be).

    Billy's little escapade with the quarter/? Boy howdy -- HIGH liver values?? oh yeah -- and all of them pretty danged high.

     Now that's where the "rub" is -- Most bloodwork gives you 'values' -- like (reading from Billy's newest one in front of me) his AST is 52 -- it *should be* 15 - 66.  (the other day it was like 729 !!!!

    NO DECIMAL THERE -- yeah -- today it's 52 ... Monday it was SEVEN HUNDRED TWENTY NINE. 

    Next one -- the ALT -- 921 in this reading ... Monday it was 2754.

     There are like 5 "liver values" -- there's no real rhyme nor reason to those of us "who ain't gotta clue" but the norms run from low numbers like 1-2 (for GGTP) to in the low hundreds for like ALT.    In other words, it would FEEL easier to us if they were all 1-25 and anything over ... 40 was "dangerous"??  But it just isn't that way (and I'm not even going to pretend to understand ANY of them in depth.)

    However -- when you read the report usually there are four columns:

    Test Requested                            Results                    Reference Range                   Units

    So for Billy's

    Test Requested:  AST is under that

    Results: 52 is under that (today)

    Reference Range:  15 - 66 (meaning under 15 is gonna be noted as (LOW) and over 66 would be (HIGH)

    Units:  U/L   (again, I've no clue -- some are in milligrams, etc.)

    The scarey thing to the lay person as you look down thru them -- you see these notes (HIGH) or (LOW) after a number in the results colum -- and that's where it's easy to panic -- except a lot of these values have to be considered as part of a ratio or "this is only bad if ____ is low or high"

    But then as you can see -- Monday Billy's looked astronomical in places -- but that ALT that was almost 3000??  All by itself it may not have been as "bad" as one of the others taken in conjunction with everything else. 

    Ok -- I say all that to say this -- TYPICALLY if it's just something like the AST and ALT -- that could be a number of things -- it could even be a temporary toxin (like heartworm tablet, application of something like Revolution, etc.) or the dog ate snow that fell off a roof (which DOES have toxicity to it *remembering the toxic way my crew reacted to the new roof 2 years ago*). 

    If this is an "only two skewed values" thing -- I'd hate to see the vet order a ton of tests just for that.  I'd want to ask what and why, and I'd also be wanting to compare notes of what may have been in his environment lately.

    Then again -- me being the type who has annual bloodwork done on my dogs anyway cos they're all "special" -- but this is how you begin to ESTABLISH a 'baseline' -- so the next time you run bloodwork (which may need to be in a couple of months with this dog UNLESS there is some clinical sign showing that says "We've got a PROBLEM here we need to address!!";).

    Usually I *ask* for bloodwork for reasons like nausea, undigested food in the gut thrown up 6-8 hours later, lethargy, strange symptoms or behavior (particularly a huge "change";) or anything weird or spooky that we can't just outwardly determine -- OR if you suspect a particular liver, kidney, blood, pancreatic, etc. problem. 

    Before I jumped on the vet for wanting to do tests, my way would be to ask "why?  Whatcha thinking this might be and ... do we have sign to suspect that?"  It's Russian Roulette to categorically tell a vet "no" to tests -- particularly if you have any trust in them, or if there are some specific signs that you went to that vet FOR.  ****OR**** if you went in for a well dog/senior visit and the vet suggested blood work (which they **should** at that point). 

    Like part of the thyroid panel -- some blood values can go up and down with the wind ... so you're looking for causes or trends or "reasons".  But then you put all that together with the vet's reputation -- does this guy always suggest a ton of "tests" just in case?  Or is he seen as really intuitive and good?

    The liver filters blood (similar to but different from how the kidneys do) so high liver values are "toxins" in the body.  TYPICALLY you don't even know there *are* high liver values unless you happen to catch them on a chance blood panel OR if the dog begins to show things like nausea (liver toxins shunt to the brain and make them *feel* sick to their stomach).  You might **suspect** liver issues (particularly if you're  holistically minded) if you are treating something like a skin problem, there is NO thyroid issue you can find but you just can't get resolution of that skin problem -- or some other besetting "problem" that's just being a pain in the butt. 

    Now if ALL the liver values were way whacked out that's different (like with Billy-meister) but just a couple??  It's not an easy "point to" thing to say "Oh that's ___________"

    I hope that was explanation enough to "help" but not so much that it was confusing.

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    • Gold Top Dog

     Callie it is just the two that are off - and not scary off - 200+ for the AST iirc

    This is poor Campbell's mom who also has special needs dogs - all of them. Sadie is about 9 I think and she had elevated liver values one other time but normal ones in between.  I believe the blood test was done pre-teeth cleaning.

    Sadie is a rescue that has had a lifelong peeing in the house problem and cataracts but otherwise is happy and healthy.

    My friend just is trying to not panic and have a zillion expensive tests - her vet has already built a second home on her dogs Tongue Tied

    • Gold Top Dog

     Karen; Some liver values can be affected by factors other than liver disease. For example, when Jessie has an ear infection and is treated with Panalog ointment, the steroid in the Panalog causes her alkaline phosphatase, ggt, and cholesterol to be elevated. A few weeks after treatment, the values return to normal. My vet said that alkaline phosphatase is so easily affected that some vets disregard it if the other values are normal. Don't know if this helps, but I doubt if Cambbell's mom needs to worry too much.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Cushing's disease (hyperadrenocortisism) can cause elevated liver enzyme levels.  A low dose dexamethasone suppression test, shouldn't cost anywhere near $500, & it should rule in/out cushing's.  It tends to be fairly common in doxies, so that might be something to look into.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Yep -- exactly what everbuddy says. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    When Willow's were off we did a round of Denosyl/Marin and then rechecked.   

    • Gold Top Dog

    Absolutely - Denosyl is the pharmaceutical version of SAM-3 and Martin is the pharmaceutical version of milk thistle.

    Billy has to take them (SAM-d and milk thistle) ALL the time simply because his liver is actually damaged from when he had IMHA, but often they will rectify numbers that are temporarily off and then, as Lori says, RECHECK.  I'd do that before doing ANY tests.