Sissy's Spleen

 Biopsy says cancer for Sissy.  The vet just called.  She said the chest x-rays and surgical inspection showed no spread into any other area - yet.

She said we can let Sissy just be herself, and may get from 5-6 months to 1, 2, even (in one case) 5 years.  She gave us a referral to an LSU vet school oncologist, where we will go next Tuesday and hear what they have to say about chemo.  We at least owe it to discuss its possibilities in her case.

Sorry for the not so good news.

I've been checking for an update and I'm so sorry it's not a good one. I do very much hope that with or without the chemo, she's one of the dogs who goes years after diagnosis.  (((hugs)))  

 Thanks, Jackie

To see how exuberently she rebounded after nearlt bleeding out and then surgery.  We've already resumed shortened walks w/ her, and she is fine.  Yesterday, she jumped over the boat tongue hitched to the car (18" off ground) rather than walking around.

She is a nervous one at a vet, and our thoughts on this right now are to give her good times like before.  Unlike for people, there is no understanding that some painful treatments now can maybe lead to a prolonged span of health in the future, and this knowledge offers hope that offsets the chemo pain to a degree - all Sissy would know is "this hurts now'  

But we will talk to the oncologist anyway.

Burl

She is a nervous one at a vet, and our thoughts on this right now are to give her good times like before.  Unlike for people, there is no understanding that some painful treatments now can maybe lead to a prolonged span of health in the future, and this knowledge offers hope that offsets the chemo pain to a degree - all Sissy would know is "this hurts now'  

 

But we will talk to the oncologist anyway.

I'm of like mind but I too would talk to the oncologist.  I'm glad she's feeling so good and I hope that continues for a good long time.  She's obviously much loved.

 I'm really sorry about the diagnosis. I'm gald she's made a quick recovery from the surgery and is feeling good.

Burl

She is a nervous one at a vet, and our thoughts on this right now are to give her good times like before.  Unlike for people, there is no understanding that some painful treatments now can maybe lead to a prolonged span of health in the future, and this knowledge offers hope that offsets the chemo pain to a degree - all Sissy would know is "this hurts now'  

 

But we will talk to the oncologist anyway.

  Please do talk to the oncologist; dogs tolerate chemo much better than people do, with fewer side effects. Last year, I took Jessie to Purdue vet teaching hospital for several visits related to diagnosing a reason for her cough and for evaluation of her chronic pancreatitis. While in the waiting room, I met several owners of dogs who were there for cancer treatment. For example, there was a 10 year old GSD who had been treated for bladder cancer for three years and was doing quite well. I know in hind sight, you wish you had taken her in sooner because of the symptoms she was displaying. It's a tough call because they can't tell you what hurts, and you obviously never suspected such a serious condition. This is a good lesson for lurkers; it's always a good idea to have a vet check your dog if it's behavior changes, especially an older dog, because they're more susceptible to cancer and other serious diseases. I'll be keeping Sissy in my thoughts, and looking for updates.

Burl

She is a nervous one at a vet, and our thoughts on this right now are to give her good times like before.  Unlike for people, there is no understanding that some painful treatments now can maybe lead to a prolonged span of health in the future, and this knowledge offers hope that offsets the chemo pain to a degree - all Sissy would know is "this hurts now'  

Burl -- *please* consider the TCVM -- I honestly never saw Muffin AT ALL uncomfortable with the chemo.  The first time he may not have felt "super" but we did the herbs thereafter and truly THEY HELPED.  He did *not* have diarreha, he was NOT nauseus at all. 

Now -- the other thing we did -- my vet did the chemo himself after the first time we had it done up at the vet school.  But he called around to compounding pharmacies and got the chemo drug **in a liquid** so he could give Muffin the **exact** dose that was proper for him.  When the vet tries to use a capsule usually it's only made in a couple of strengths so about 75% of the time the dog winds up getting "over-dosed" because it's in between weights.  I firmly believe this helped a TON.

TCVM does *not* hurt.  If you go to the videos on here you will find a video of Billy getting acupuncture.  It's pretty obvious it does NOT hurt. 

I have had acupuncture MYSELF for many years -- it's rare that you even feel a needle slide in (and like getting a tattoo -- only when it's close to a bone does it actually hurt).  My dogs LOVE going to the acupuncture vet.  They get yummy treats after and the whole process tends so be so hands on that they feel more "Petted" than they do "hurt". 

 If I can help you -- let me know.  My vet is actually one of the faculty on the Chi Institute and as a result I know a LOT of those vets so I've gotten pretty good at helping folks pick which vet might work for them.  Feel free to email me.  But please don't be afraid of it for her -- it really CAN help so much.

 The other thing would be to put her on a cancer diet.  And trust me -- that is NO hardship for a dog.  It's essentially a no grain diet..  You can do kibble or you can home cook.  I essentially feed mine a cancer diet all the time -- but trust me, I never have a bit of trouble getting anybuddy to eat. 

It's the simple fact that carbs feed cancer and make it grow -- doctors and vets have known this for about 35 years now.  So putting your dog on a carb-free (mostly grain carbs are the problem) diet can make a huge difference in quality of time.

 We will certain look into diet and TCVM avenues at the oncologist's visit now scheduled for Monday morning.

Sissy's brother, Happy died 3 years ago after his secondy kidney failed (one year earlier, his 1st failed and was removed).  He was switched to a high protein diet the last year.

He died at the vet's hospital, where they were trying to get his renal blood chemicals back in balance.  Had we spent a little more time in conversation discovering the heroic measures being taken by that vet, we would have preferred to euthanize Happy in a more peaceful manner.Like Sissy, he had never spent a night away from us unless getting spayed or a surgery, but Happy spent his final 3 nights away and died from a seizure - I am still mad and mourn how that turned out.  I only hope the medications made it less obvious to him that he was not w/ us.  Like Sissy is, he was a good dog.

  A friend of mine has a dog who at 6 had a growth in her mouth. The regular vet attempted to remove it but couldn't get it all. In the time between waiting for the biopsy to come back and scheduling an appointment with the oncologist (about 2 weeks), the tumor quickly grew back. At the speciality clinic, the dog had to have quite a portion of her upper jaw removed on one side, right up to the eye rim. The second biopsy came back as two different types of cancer, osteosarcoma and one other, which I'm drawing a blank on right now. The oncologist strongly pushed for chemo due to the type of cancers which were present. My friend declined but put the dog on a strict raw food diet of no carbs/starches, started her on Essiac Tea and did no further vaccines. The dog just turned 10 and is still healthy and running agility. Obviously I'm not saying these things will cure cancer but it seems in the case of my friend's dog it certainly didn't hurt.

 There is quite a bit of info out there about natural help for dogs with cancer, if you don't feel that chemotherapy is an option.

http://neuro.vetmed.ufl.edu/neuro/AltMed/Cancer/Cancer_AltMed.htm

 http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/acancer.htm

http://dogcanceradvice.com/dog-cancer-advice-blog/

 What is a recommendation on a good low-grain, hi-protein dog food for Sissy?  Is Blue Wilderness one?

I am reading y'all's links and getting pretty upset about the flea, heartworm, chemically treated kibble, vaccinations, and am starting to see why dogs don't live to an avg 15 years anymore like I used to recall.

 Sorry the news wasn't better, but I know you will do all you can to help Sissy have a good outcome and a good life.  There are some grain free foods that might fit the bill.  Maybe something like Orijen. 

 Thanks, spiritdogs.  Is Orijen/Older Dog available at petsmart or petco.  Would Red(6) and Peanut(5) do better with the hi-protein no grain mix?

Hi Burl-----I am sorry to hear of Sissy's diagnosis.

Orijen is not available at Petco nor at Petsmart.  High protein, grain-free options at Petco would be Blue Buffalo Wilderness line of foods, Solid Gold-Barking at the Moon, Wellness Core, or Pinnacle Peak Performance.  Petsmart carries the Blue Buffalo, and maybe the Wellness Core.

As for if your other dogs would do better on a grain free formula is hard to say---some dogs do great on the formulas, some do not---no harm in trying, though.

FWIW, my vet had us home cook and serve raw for our cancer dog----she really advocated a less processed diet---In addition to no grain carbs, she also did not like the use of starchy vegetables as carbs, either---meaning no potatoes---which, unfortunately, is the main carb source in most grain-free kibble.  I certainly would discuss all your diet options with the oncologist.

Good luck to you.

Sorry to hear about Sissy. But maybe things will get better.

In the book, "Getting Lucky", Susan Marino operates an animal hospice out of her home. For old dogs that are ailing. And one thing she would do is put them on a raw diet, which didn't necessarily help prolong life, but it didn't hurt, either. It is her way of giving them a quality of life she feels they appreciate. As for high protein, most any dog can do well regardless of age. The only problem with high protein from animal meat is if the pet has diminished kidney function. When a creature consumes meat for protein, nitrogen is released. Normally, the kidneys filter out the nitrogen and it is passed out in the urine. When the kidneys don't work so well, the nitrogen backs up. This is what happened with my old cat, Misty. it caused lethargy and nausea. So, the vet said she wasn't feeling pain as you or might, she simply didn't have her usual energy, so to speak. He had me put her on Purina NF (Nitrogen Free Extract). That's a fancy way of saying that the protein came from vegetable matter, thereby eliminating much of the nitrogen and taking a load off the kidneys. She lasted another year and then had drastic kidney failure. I decided enough was enough and she was put to sleep. She was 17 years old.

I am totally clueless as to how dogs do on chemo. But, right now, it sounds like a treatable problem.

And how often do we kick ourselves in the butt because we didn't notice a symptom? Add to that that we expect dogs to slow down in old age. That they are stoic, often hiding an ailment because weakness gets them killed in the wild. And we don't have a common language that is expressive enough to delineate exactly what is wrong. Nor would it always help if they could. That was highlighted to me in an episode of "House." A patient seemed to be a painkiller Jane. She couldn't feel pain and was constantly injuring herself by accident. So, the diagnosis was to find out where something hurt when it did, because it was not always where the source could be. So, even if a dog could say "it hurts on my third rib" that might not be where the problem is, although knowing there was a problem could have helped sooner.

You do the best you can with what you have. And enjoy each day as much as possible.

And get well, Sissy.

Burl

 What is a recommendation on a good low-grain, hi-protein dog food for Sissy?  Is Blue Wilderness one?

 

I am reading y'all's links and getting pretty upset about the flea, heartworm, chemically treated kibble, vaccinations, and am starting to see why dogs don't live to an avg 15 years anymore like I used to recall.

 

Ideally either raw or homecooked. The quality of kibble is pretty much questionable unless the food guarantees they use 100% human grade food. Also the grain free foods can still have a fairly high percentage of carbs, just not in the form of grain. If you don't want to make your own, there are commercial raw food diet available just be sure to do your homework on them, just like you would any commercial food.

Spleen and Hemangiosarcoma

Sissy (12 yrs) has hemangiosarcoma (cancer of the blood vessel wall cells – not the blood)  that caused her spleen to form tumors that periodically ruptured and put excess blood into the body cavity (bleed out).  This shows up as unusual lethargy, like flopping down on a walk early in the walk.  Full energy came back within hours as the small bleedout was absorbed.  In course of a month, one or two were worse (walk flop and could not walk home), and she nearly died on the big one just before her spleenectomy.  There was something like a 55-45 chance that the spleen was cancerous, so we took the chance hoping for the best, but the biopsy came up cancer.

The oncologist talked with us today for over 30 min.  The scenarios are:

1) spleenectomy w/o chemo: with metastisis seen in any other organs (lungs, heart, liver) – probably a month or less.
2) spleenectomy w/o chemo: with no apparent metastisis seen in any other organs – probably 2 or 3 months.  Sissy shows no such tumors at present.
3) spleenectomy w/ chemo – probably 6 to 8 months, with only 1 in 10 making it past 1 yr. These estimates are the mean (centerline) of a bell curve; half do worse, half better.

Eventually, tumors will appear on other organs and death will come when one is uncontrollably bleeding out.

 The chemo is doxorubicin and is given 5 or 6 times spaced three weeks apart.  Ultrasounds are done at the start and midway, and blood tests precede each chemo visit.  For the chemo IV, the vet school takes the dog in as a day patient for several hours. The dog must be kept still 15 min. for chemo IV.  

Most dogs take full treatments w/ no side effects like vomit/diarrhea since the chemo is at a low dose for dogs, with the result that the chemo does not kill the hemangiosarcoma – just subdues it for a while.  Whereas people take extreme doses of these drugs to kill the cancer.

FYI, the spleenectomy and all extras is $1900.  The chemo and extras is $2500.

Given what we had been discovering on the web, our info was consonant with almost all that the oncologist said, but we were glad we got all the specifics of how many vet visitations would be required. He said there is no medical study work dealing with the effects of kibble grains on the cancers – this is also true for humans – and  we should gradually move to another type, if we choose to change.  No need for change in walks (we all go 2x a day at 40 and 20 min).  Essentially, “The cancer does what it wants.”

Given Sissy’s homebody nature and stress at the vet, the few months added by chemo do not seem worth the stress the vet bloodwork visits and chemo dropoffs will entail.

As Dr. West mentioned after the splee biopsy came in, “You can always just let Sissy be Sissy.”  That is our plan.  And, your situation will surely differ from ours.

Hope this benefits others on the forum.