need info on seizure meds quickly (for Bugsy's friend Campbell)

 Liver damage and ataxia (unsteady gait) are usually side effects of phenobarbital.  I have no idea what the 8 hour medicine would be.

I prefer Potassium bromide, but it can take a bit to get to therapeutic levels so I know some vets don't like to use it first.  Worth asking about - a month's dose for my parents' dog was around $10 (1.2mL twice/day for a 55lb dog).

eta: KBr doesn't seem to have a ton of side effects ime, but I do know that keeping the sodium level of the diet the dog is on steady is important, so I don't know if that would be an issue or not.  You also must get it from a compounding pharmacy in many cases, but I know my parents' vet mixed it up in their pharmacy just fine.

The dog I had with siezures started on pheno and was transitioned to the postassium bromide.  She lived many years, seizure free, with no ill effects.  I hope they can get Campbell's seizures under control. 

I can't comment on the meds, but he should be on a grain-free diet.  The blood-brain barrier can become too permeable and allow too much of some amino acids to pass into the brain.  That can result in seizures.

See http://dogtorj.com/

"The original meaning of the acronym (GARD) was the glutamate & aspartate restricted diet, being derived from the fact that The G.A.R.D. placed a premium on the elimination of two non-essential amino acids, glutamic and aspartic acid, the parent proteins in MSG and aspartame (NutraSweet), respectively. These two neurostimulating amino acids play a major role in epilepsy, migraines, insomnia, ADHD, autism, fibromyalgia and numerous other neurodegenerative diseases. It was not hard to see that the food sources of these amino acids - grains, dairy, soy/legumes, and nuts/seeds - were also playing a major role in the manifestation of these common medical conditions."

kpwlee

 He's been having seizures on and off for about a year now - but they are now more frequent - in fact had two grand mal seizures today.  His owner sent me a message stating that "one causes liver damage, one causes pretty severe sedation and one has to be administered every 8 hours and runs upwards of 2-3 hundred $ per month."

I gotta ask what they have been doing thus far??  Have they tried TCVM?  (acupuncture and Chinese herbals??)  There are times when there are things in the body that *contribute* (not CAUSE but contribute) to the severity and timing of seizures.  There are Chinese herbals (like Di Tan Tang that Kee took and that Pirate has taken) that can make it FAR FAR less necessary to use the drugs. 

Phenobarbitol is the one that's nasty on the liver (both that and KBr are hard on the liver) and there are some new jazzy ones out there that are MEGA expensive.  But honestly doing the herbals first and then adding a drug if need be can keep all the side effects FAR more under control.

I know Megan will be along to tell about this -- when she first got Pi and he started to seize she was *terrified* and the vets put him on pheno.  But the pheno is what caused the pancytopenia (which is simply thrombocytopenia caused by pheno) and then they transitioned him over to KBr.  But at this point I know Megan wishes she'd done the Chinese herbs FIRST. 

 Karen there ARE good TCVM vets up there where you are.  If you still have my phone number feel free to give it to Campbell's Mom.  I'll help her in any way possible.

If they have to do the pheno or KBr (and BOTH of them have side effects -- it's just the way it is) there ARE things she can do to mitigate the damage (things like milk thistle and learning the first aid stuff to do during/after seizures).

The herb I mentioned above is VERY VERY like pheno -- but it's a natural and it *does not* cause all the side effects.  But it really IS far stronger than any of the herbals we have here -- this stuff REALLY works.

 Callie they have used someone who has made 5 different tinctures but none have helped - this is why they are moving on to the meds.

We briefly discussed acupuncture last night, that is a definite possibility

I'm so sorry to hear that Campbell is not doing well. Poor little guy! He's been through so much!!!

 

Emma took phenobarbital, when her seizures got bad. It did take a toll on her liver. Her numbers stayed pretty good, but she felt bad. She had ataxia, until her dosage was stabilized, and stayed a bit unsteady in the rear (which was partly an Emma thing). We tried switching her, but it didn't work, and she'd have had to take the KBr in addition for several weeks, before starting to wean down the phenobarbital. It is addictive, and Emma had to have hers ON TIME or she'd have a seizure. I did acupuncture as long as I could, and a GARD diet (which, seriously, delayed the need for meds by FIVE YEARS! Big, huge deal with the diet!). Herbs, I didn't try, because they are as serious as medicine, and I didn't feel comfortable using a vet an hour and a half or more away to moniter her on them.

 

It just all sucks, honestly. The very first thing I'd do is get him on a grain free, dairy free, preferably seed free (so no flax) diet ASAP.  Royal Canin makes a prescription diet that works pretty well. Emma ate  the rabbit flavor, when I couldn't cook for her. They make a venison, too.

 

http://www.royalcanin.us/adx/aspx/adxGetMedia.aspx?DocID=134,293,12,1,Documents&MediaID=5963&Filename=Canine+Potato+%26+Venison+Formula.pdf

kpwlee

 Callie they have used someone who has made 5 different tinctures but none have helped - this is why they are moving on to the meds.

We briefly discussed acupuncture last night, that is a definite possibility

In my experience (and even Dr. Demers will say) Homeopathy really doesn't work well on seizures.  Typically when a vet gives a "tincture" it's a homeopathic remedy he's made.  Typically Chinese herbs don't come in tinctures.  And Western herbs do but typically they aren't nearly strong enough to work on seizures. 

Often people really don't understand the difference between the alternative modalities.  They kinda just take the bottle a vet or practitioner hands them and use it.  I'm not faulting them at all -- but it always annoys me a bit when the practitioner doesn't represent it accurately to people.

I'm talking about Chinese herbs - those would be powdered - usually in capsules or you stir in their food.  That's TCVM - not homeopathy.  I wish I'd known -- I would have said homeopathy for the heart stuff but not the seizures.  The herb I mentioned above is a Chinese herb -- you'd have to get it from a TCVM practitioner (in fact I think Meg uses two of Dr. Xie's formulas on Pirate). 

TCVM (traditional Chinese veterinary medicine) isn't something common in China -- it simply applies the principles of traditional Chinese medicine TO veterinary medicine.  They may import the raw herbs but most of the TCVM practitioners are using companies that are primarily suppliers for meds for humans (not something the Chinese have formulated to 'imitate' or add to an American product -- that's typically where you run into problems with Chinese products). 

If Campell's Mom wants to call me she's welcome to -- I can probably give her more information on what to ask for.  I can almost promise her that real Chinese herbs wouldn't be tinctures.  That's just not how they do things. (I've often said to my TCVM friends that you almost have to be reared as an Oriental to actually swallow some of the bitter herbs they take routinely - shoot not even in a capsule.  They just take a mouthful of bitter powder and swallow it ... ughhhh).  Kee never minded the Di Tan Tang in her food and I don't think Pirate minds his either.

I don't know about the meds but make sure she is not feeding anything with coloring, dyes or additives in it as it can trigger seizures. Some of the less healthy dog food has different colors and lots of treats often have coloring in them. Diet plays an important role in the management of Canine Epilepsy. It is very important to feed a kibble that is preservative free. Preservatives such as Ethoxyquin and BHT, BHA should be avoided as they can cause seizures. Many "Supermarket " foods are loaded with chemical dyes and preservatives, buy a high quality kibble made from "human grade" ingredients or better yet cook for your dog or feed a raw ( BARF) diet. Many recipes can be found in Dr Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs and Cats. Two helpful books on a raw diet are Dr Ian Billinghurst's "The BARF Diet" & Susan Johnson's "Switching to Raw". There is also a good article on the web site called " The Role of a Healthy Diet in the Management of Canine Epilepsy" PLEASE NOTE: If your dog is taking Potassium Bromide be very careful when you switch dog foods. Try to make sure the chloride content is the same as the previous food. Change over very slowly, whether it is the same chloride content or different, so that the absorption rate of the KBr remains constant. http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/overview.html

Dawnben

Change over very slowly, whether it is the same chloride content or different, so that the absorption rate of the KBr remains constant. http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/overview.html

 

That is a good url -- KBr can be really tricky that way.  Raw or home-cooked -- both can be really helpful (particularly if you think ingredients might be a problem)

Even some of the natural and more "holistic" commercial foods aren't wonderful -- Meg found when trying to switch Pirate to a different food that one of the foods she tried had "rosemary" as a preservative.

Why is that a big deal?  Because it's in the "pine" family and piney stuff can trigger seizures as well -- pine tar, pine pitch, pine cleaners, and pine smelling herbs like rosemary. 

 

 Thanks for the continued input - last I knew he was eating Orjen Red meat or arcana pacific.  He doesn't keep weight on well and chicken goes right through him. The family is vegetarian so I don't think a home diet is likely.

 updating that he has been put on zonisamide for the seizures starting today - he has no other neurological symptoms and they feel it is not epilepsy

She chose not to do the MRI and other tests because they would treat it the same regardless.  

There is such a HUGE difference in where vets went to school.  Down here they simply call ANY seizure type disorder "epilepsy" -- it's not gauged any more by "other symptoms".  That's not just UF but even my vet who went to Auburn says the same thing. 

Kee had no other neuro symptoms either ... and the regular vets just plain never consider environmental triggers which can be so huge.  A couple of months ago when we had the lunar eclipse?? Dr. DiNatale saw more seizure dogs that week than she'd seen in YEARS and regular vets don't even consider solar activity or phases of the moon a possible trigger. 

Please feel free to encourage her to email me -- or if she'd rather, I'm still moderator at the VegSource dogboard (they have hosted our little board for years and they are a veg*n organization).  I'm not but I'm very very respectful and know more than most about the ingredients because of that background.