Denamarin & Tear Stains

Denamarin is denosyl + marin -- and in honesty it is simply a supplement made by a dog pharmaceutical company that is the same thing as milk thistle and SAM-e. 

First question -- do you KNOW what caused the elevated liver enzymes to begin with??

Denamarin is a good product - truly it is.  Pricey, but good.

But you can do the same thing over-the-counter with a good quality of milk thistle and SAM-e.  And you may not NEED the SAM-e (which is more expensive -- and I can give you sources if you want to continue it).

I wouldn't doubt that it was the denamairn.  For a couple of reasons:

1.  The "Marin" part is silymarin -- the milk thistle (silymarin is just the Latin name for the herb).  Milk thistle does several things.  It does help, somewhat, in detoxing the liver -- to help bring the liver values down.  That is actually more the function of the SAM-e (S-adenosylmethionine) -- to detox the liver and bring down the liver values.  But milk thistle also 'protects' the liver from other harsh drugs (and that's probably it's handiest use) AND it also -- because of the protecting/detoxing effects -- helps the liver function better!. 

2.  It could be the SAM-e portion of the drug -- again simply because once you help the liver to function more efficiently everything works better.

Tear stains -- like any other body excretion from mucus to ear wax to actua waste like urine & ***  -- are simply the body giving off waste material it no longer needs.  That's NOT something a 'regular' vet is going to tell you.  That's a more holistic viewpoint.

But honestly?  I have seen milk thistle, in particular, actually augment drugs and make them work better (my Billy had IMHA and he took BOODLES of steroids and steroid-like drugs that saved his life a few years ago and he took boatloads of milk thistle and SAM-e). 

The liver and kidneys are filering organs -- they clean the sludge out of the blood.  It's entirely possible that the Marin enabled to liver to work more efficiently so the body didn't need to throw off the gunk thru the eyes it normally would.  Tear production is critical to keeping the eyes moist -- you may still have some allergies (probably atopic) going on which contributes to the eye crusties but generally the body is filtering out the brown staining material before it exits the eyes as tears.

Billy and Tink both tend to have liver issues -- just because of environmental toxins (like the mosquito spray the City sprays with, and even stuff like heartworm prevention that I *have* to use because I'm in Florida, and the flea junk I have to use, ALSO because I'm in Florida.  I home cook so they don't get many toxins in their food.

There is no problem with simply continuing the milk thistle portion on an ongoing basis (there is no long term problem with it).  I wouldn't use SAM-e unless there is a need demonstrated for it by further bloodwork.  It's pricey and you don't want to give a supplement like that if it's not needed.

Marin IS actually made FROM milk thistle.  It's simply so incredibly and majorly distilled and processed that it becomes a pharmaceutical rather than an herb.  The problem is that it loses the natural protection of the herbal properties in the process, so you don't want to continue to give Marin on a super long term basis (because at that point it just becomes another drug). 

You can put powdered milk thistle right in the dog's food -- mine just think it's fine-tasting.  I get the powdered herb in bulk (which is WAY cheaper than giving it in little capsules).  You *must* however, give the best quality of milk thistle you can find -- this is *not* something to just buy a generic of ... it will still be expensive and you won't have the benefits.  Herbs are not "regulated" (they are plant material -- that would be like the government trying to 'regulate' tomato or celery.  Let me know if you want to know more about milk thistle.

Billy has taken milk thistle for 4 1/2 years now -- sometimes I increase it if his liver values go up for some reason (we got new sod last spring and they had to spray the soil with pesticide and it spiked his liver values like nobuddy's business -- Tink's too!).  But for Billy it simply helps a weak liver function more efficiently.

**laughing** someone has turned back on the bad words filter -- and the 5 letter techical term for doggy waste that starts with "fe" and ends with "ces" got a whole string of asterix -- I really didn't say a nasty word LOL

 Hi Callie,

Thanks for the reply.  I found some posts by you about Denamarin when the vet first suggested Nemo take it for 6 months.  I've tried really hard to not dwell on  the "what ifs".  Until this April his blookwork has always been good and I've gotten it done once a year so we'd have a baseline for when he got older.  She said that the number was just slightly elevated and hoped this would "nip it in the bud" so to speak.  The only "possibility" I remember her mentioning might be causing it was Cushings. 

The vet wants to do the bloodwork while he's still on the denamarin.  Does that sound right?   Just seems a bit odd to me. 

Yes, I would be very interested in the powdered milk thistle information.   One of the many things I've learned about Nemo is that chewable vitamins are not an option.  Powders or liquids that I can sprinkle on or mix into the stew I make works much better.  Hopefully you're talking ordering online because I'm pretty sure I'm not going to find anything locally. 

Again, thanks so much you all of your information and all of that typing.

Debbie

sterlingfan40

The vet wants to do the bloodwork while he's still on the denamarin.  Does that sound right?   Just seems a bit odd to me. 

She wants to see IF the Denamarin is doing what it SHOULD do and if it's brought the numbers down before you change anything.

However -- AFTER he's off (for like a couple of months) she should want to redo the bloodwork to make sure it doesn't zoom back up as soon as he's off the detox stuff.

sterlingfan40

Powders or liquids that I can sprinkle on or mix into the stew I make works much better.  Hopefully you're talking ordering online because I'm pretty sure I'm not going to find anything locally

You can find milk thistle capsules even at Wal-Mart.  And if you have any sort of a health store you should be able to find amongst the bulk herbal teas "milk thistle tea" which is just bulk milk thistle.

However -- go to http://www.leavesandroots.com -- and go to "M".  The milk thistle you want is "milk thistle powder" (not the whole seed) -- and a pound should be $12.85 -- a rounded half-teaspoon is an easy dose -- you can give more if you need/want to. (and yeah, Callie does all her shopping online LOL)

It's a little off the particular issue you are having.  But, I recently found this little article with lots of comments.  I've been pondering it myself for a week or so.  I thought you might like to read it too being as it's related to the eye. 

http://blogs.dogster.com/living-with-dogs/milk-thistle-and-senior-dogs/2010/08/

It's not a bad article -- a few of her facts are a bit slippery, but she's got the right idea for sure. 

The liver actually affects ALL other organs -- simply because it is one of the two chief organs for purifying blood for the heart and part of the digestive process (sort of a secondary/tertiary part) takes place as the liver helps filter the blood. 

She brings out a huge point -- SO often when I talk to folks they will maintain that they "don't USE chemicals" -- but they forget car exhaust is everywhere, and altho you may not spray YOUR lawn, your neighbor probably does, or some guy sprays crops nearby.  The dog who doesn't live in the city may actually be more sensitive TO *any* yuck in their environment as well.

Another good point she makes -- I also use milk thistle on ALL the dogs, not just after surgery, but after giving them heartworm prevention or flea junk.  If I know there's been spraying going on anywhere in the neighborhood I also give all of them milk thistle.

Billy and Tink are on it all the time because both of them have livers that just plain don't work at normal capacity.

Her reference that homeopaths encourage giving liver to your dog -- that's not just those who deal with homeopathy, but it's generally recognized among holistic vets that like organs help like organs -- meaning liver supports the liver, heart supports the heart, etc.

However -- liver IS a "dirty organ" -- that means whatever was in that animal's system before it was slaughtered remains to a greater degree in the liver and kidneys (because they *filter* the blood)  So yes, as a small part of supplementation some liver treats, etc. can be helpful -- even adding liver to their food occasionally is great.  But particularly with liver, if you can find *organic* liver to make your treats out of you're doing better.

One note:  milk thistle really isn't particularly bitter at all.  Now echinacea?  oh yeah ... but not milk thistle.  Now it probably wouldn't go over really well over kibble but blending it into a little meat juice or such should make it go down easily.

Callie, girl that web site is probably going to get me into a BUNCH of trouble, not just for Nemo but for me too.

I went there for a quick look and to bookmark the sight and  oh boy!!!!  The soaps and oils alone will get me in trouble. 

I'll probably take him in for the bloodwork on 10/22 on the way down to 4 Paws.  Hopefully good news.  If so, I'll discuss milk thistle with the vet and go from there.  By Halloween I should have had time to make a large list of stuff to order from Leaves and Roots

 Again thanks for your information about the liver, tear stains and milk thistle. 

 Debbie

Gee -- get him ON some milk thistle tho -- unless you still have Denamarin left. 

fwiw -- I never have ANY trouble ordering the $20 minimum from Leaves and Roots.  *grin*  I use a LOT of essential oils with both the dogs and I -- some of which I do wear as perfume.  And the teas .... and the herbs .... LOL

The sore throat tea ROCKS!

Yes, Callie got me addicted, too:)

38 days of Denamarin left. 10/22 should be about a week before it runs out and 10/31 I should have the results and be ready to place an order.  Plus I'll be headed back from 4 Paws to be able to place the order.  Hot tea on a chilly evening, Oooo, that sounds yummy.  One of the few things I like about cold weather. 

 Update.....and questions. 

Nemo had blood work in late October and his alkaline phosphatase was higher than when we started the denamarin....326 up to 381.  There seem to be no other symptoms, so the vet is OK with milk thistle and SAM-e.  We've been using the milk thistle for several weeks.  He doesn't seem to notice it in his food so that is going well.  The tear stains are still gone. 

I had a bit of trouble getting the liquid SAM-e but finally got the Cellfood in Florida last weekend. 

My question is since SAM-e is supposed to be taken on an empty stomach and then wait an hour to eat, am I going to be wasting my money if I put this in his evening meal.   He gets dry food in the morning and a stew in the evening.  The denamarin sometimes upset his stomach and he threw up or didn't eat. 

Advice would be greatly appreciated.