HELP My Dog has a Liver Tumor- is very weak ADVICE PLEASE

 Its your decision. I always go with, how is the dogs quality of life. ((((((Hugs)))))))

The first thing to do is milk thistle -- GOBS of it -- and SAM-e (both of which will detox the liver).

Why metranydazole?? 

Yes, it could be cancer.  It could simply be liver failure.  Or it could be a liver infection.  But milk thistle and SAM-e will help get the liver numbers down.

Milk thistle capsules?  Give him 4-5 twice a day.  If you can get milk thistle **tincture** (which is a liquid) you can put it in a little bit of yogurt or baby food to get it in him.  The tincture is actually stronger and will help more faster.

Milk thistle you'll have to get at a health store -- if you have a Whole Foods they'll have it.  So should ANY health store (even a mall GNC will have it).

You can also get SAM-e at a health store -- I'd use the 400 mg ones and give him two a day.  IF you can find somewhere that carries Cell Food stuff -- their SAM-e is a liquid and far easier to work in the dog's system.

When the liver is too toxic to operate, the toxins go to the brain.  The dog *thinks* it's nauseus more than the nausea is real (and they can't tell the difference - it's the effect of the toxins).

The vet should give you lactulose -- it's actually a laxative, but it is a special thing that will pull the toxins OUT of the brain and it should help get him eatin.  lactulose is cheap -- and it's one of those things that the more you give them the better job it does pulling the toxins out of the brain.  BUT it will give him loose stool (all the way to really runny diarreha) -- so you have to balance how much vs. how much you can handle cleaning him up.

THAT is the first thing to ask the vet for.  It will be better than just an anti-nausea. 

If you can get him stabilized that is the first thing -- then probably ask the vet to do an ultrasound -- that's going to show WAY more than an x-ray.  In honesty, you might want to go to your state's best vet school.  That's always a good option for a very ill dog.

Trying to get him stable and get the toxicity down so you CAN get him to eat is a big deal.  feel free to email me if I can help you.

 vanmel, this is always such a hard decision for us when we have a well loved dog that isn't doing well.  I usually try to speak candidly with my vet about my dog's quality of life.  Cushing's is difficult to treat, but some dogs do ok for a while and have decent quality of life.  If your dog's tumor is cancerous, there isn't very much time anyway, and you will need to consider how you want the end to come.  I know this is awfully painful, and nothing will take that pain away once you lose a heart dog.  If you make your decisions with your dog's welfare in mind, and not with your own sadness at possibly losing him, you'll do the right thing with any information the vet gives you.  <<>>

vanmel,

Sending you lots of hugs and positive thoughts as you go through this. It is so painful, yet it's a such an honor to be able to make sure your pup's journey is peaceful. When you get your Brownie's bloodwork back, ask all your questions. I write them all down and go in with my list (or have it ready when I call), because I know I'll forget something, especially if I'm really upset. No question is silly. Ask everything you need or want to know. 

If you want the info for the vet school hospital closest to you, just send me an email or post a note here and I'll send it to you.

We're thinking of you!

Just wanted to second the veterinary school and also let you know your pup is in my thoughts and prayers.

Hope this works out for you in the end.

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thank you all so much for your advice especially  ·  calliecritturs , for the advice on the milk thistle, i am getting the capsules from a 24hr walmart store,  as it is late at night here and the stores are closed. now how much do I give him of  the milk thistle per day? also please tell em where there is a vert hospital I would take him, I am desperate and dont want to lose my brownie. I live in cape coral florida near fort myers

anyway ,I'm back with an update on brownie.. I had to take him back to the vet this afternoom b/c he threw up  2x

Just by luck his labs came in when I was there ..Basically I found out he is hypothyroid, and  possibly with cushings , and he is needing a transfusion as well.. He has all sorts of things going on at this moment , but the vet is trying to figure out where the blood is going ..  Brownie is going in tomorrow for a transfusion.. They are going to try and stabilize him so she can do further testing with an ultrasound to see if the tumor is cancerous, she also suspects internal bleeding...

The meds he is on are METRONADIZOLE 2X A DAY is an antibiotic, she says goes to the liver quickly..,  SUCRALFATE 2X A DAY to coat his stomach ,  FAMOTIDE 1X A DAY for the stomach as well and she started him on  PREDNISONE  today . he will  go into  the vet hospital for 2 days and will have the blood transfusion..  I am so distrought and in shock, my heart is just sinking in my chest, the doc gave me a 50/50 chance as she doesnt know if the tumor is cancerous, I was just upset as she was leaning more towards putting him to sleep and he is still eating and doesnt look like he wants to die as of yet without a fight, he at times is very lively and sometimes he gets sleepy but his anemia is bad so i dont blame him for feeling so sick and having a high heart rate.. and I am here to help him and with gods help he will conquer this, and if he doesnt at least we tried our best.

Below are his labs.. Does anyone have any input ...         Thank you so much

these are the abnormal , everything else was normal

co2 13 L                                 ranges  15-28

total protein 5.1 L                                5.5-8.1

albumin 2.1 L                                        2.7-4.5

bilirumbin total   H  1.12                           0-< 0.5

bilirumbin direct  H  0.30                          0-<0.2

alk phosphatase 739 h                                  0-175

alt sgpt 122 h                                            <-60

amylase 1179 h                                         220-1044

lipase 394 h                                                30-145

total 4 0.3 L                                               0.8-3.6

leukocytes wbc   20.6 h                              6.0- 13.5

erythrocytes rbc 3.20 L                               5.5-8.5

hemoglobin 8.1 L                                         11.5- 18

hematocrit 25.4 L                                           37-55

mcv 79 H                                                    37-55

band neutrophils   5 H         ranges    0-3                                

lymphocytes        5 L                  12-30

atypical lymphs     2 H                  0

seg neutrophils 15.862 H               3.00-11.50

band neutrophils 1.030  H                0-1.0

monocytes          1.648 H                0.10-1.50

nrbc   43 H                                     0-1

 Urinalyses

specific gravity 1.012 L            

We are praying for Brownie. 

Are you anywhere near the University of Florida?  I know Callie has been there and would also likely recommend them to you.  According to the labs Brownie is highly regenerative (the body is making lots of new baby blood cells) as indicative of the nRBC and MCV.  I wonder if the vet looked at the blood under the microscope to rule out spherocytosis.  This could rule out an auto immune anemia.  Is it possible that maybe the liver is just enlarged and making the xrays look skewed? 

For the time being I would also feed a VERY STRICT diet consisting of absolutely no fat.  The high amylase and lipase would have me concerned just as much as the high liver values.  Keep it very bland for now till you find out more.

Was Brownie on ANY meds prior to all this? 

Keep us posted.  You both have my thoughts and prayers.  Don't give up hope...please do seek out more opinions.

 Hi, Thank you so much for responding and for your prayers, 

anyway brownie has never fallen ill and has never bee on any kind of meds before, the only 2 surgeries hes had in his life was when he got neutured and last year when he had a tooth removed. but other than that he has always been very healthy.

anyway she did look at the blood under the microscope but she just told me that the blood results and what she had seen under the microscope were the same. and she mentioned that soemthing was not auto immune, so i am not sure if it was the anemia.

I am not sure where the univ of florida is located, but I would take him there if this doesnt work out,  anyway what kind of diet should I feed him, i bought him baby food without rice, will this work?  my husband just got the milk thistle and i gave him oe tablet of 1000mg plus 1 400mg sam-e

now do these supplemenst interract with his meds? let me know if i have to space it out thanks so much again and god bless you all

vanmel

anyway what kind of diet should I feed him,

If you want the best food that would help heal the liver you could always try homecooking and use the liver cleansing diet by Dr. Dodds.  Here's a link for you...

http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/liver_diet.htm

vanmel

anyway she did look at the blood under the microscope but she just told me that the blood results and what she had seen under the microscope were the same. and she mentioned that soemthing was not auto immune, so i am not sure if it was the anemia.

You could always just ask her if she saw amy spherocytes.  Was the blood agglutinating (clumping) at all?

vanmel

now do these supplemenst interract with his meds?

vanmel

i am getting the capsules from a 24hr walmart store,  as it is late at night here and the stores are closed. now how much do I give him of  the milk thistle per day?

3-5 capsules twice a day -- literally as much as you can get in him.  If you CAN empty a capsule into a small amount of baby food and see if he'll take it. 

ASK THE VET FOR LACTULOSE -- and I'd also ask the vet for Denosyl if you can't get to a health store to get SAM-e.

vanmel

..Basically I found out he is hypothyroid, and  possibly with cushings , and he is needing a transfusion as well.. He has all sorts of things going on at this moment , but the vet is trying to figure out where the blood is going ..  Brownie is going in tomorrow for a transfusion.. They are going to try and stabilize him so she can do further testing with an ultrasound to see if the tumor is cancerous, she also suspects internal bleeding...

Sometimes they are SO stoic you don't know anything IS wrong until many things are all piled on top of each other.

You're saying the vet does *not* suspect something auto-immune like IMHA (immune-mediated hemolytic anemia)??

vanmel

I was just upset as she was leaning more towards putting him to sleep and he is still eating and doesnt look like he wants to die as of yet without a fight, he at times is very lively and sometimes he gets sleepy but his anemia is bad so i dont blame him for feeling so sick and having a high heart rate.. and I am here to help him and with gods help he will conquer this, and if he doesnt at least we tried our best.

As long as YOU know he's trying, then keep going.  It's a tough call but sometimes you just have to try even if the vet isn't behind you.  Sometimes it's time to try a new vet.

My first suggestion is for you to take him to Gainesville.  Go up I-75 north straight to Gainesville -- you can call ahead to the small animal hospital.  If you want to just GO you don't need a referral from your vet.  They open at 8:00 a.m..

Click here -- those blue words are the link to the Small Animal Hospital.  Honestly -- the earlier you can start the better off you are.  You can call them while you are on your way (My best guess is it's about 5 hours or so).  HOnestly I think it's FAR FAR better than the vet school in Miami.  

I'll email you my phone number.  I had another day from heck today (my brand new car died and I had to run all over to get it towed and a new battery -- gotta love this Florida heat!!)

I'm near Orlando -- I can't take a long time with you on the phone tomorrow cos I'll be at work, but I sure can help you get connected up at UF. 

Once there -- I would also ask IN ADDITION to see someone from Dr. Xie's team (Xie -- say it "shay";) -- they do acupuncture and Chinese herbology and they do AWESOME AWESOME stuff iwth liver problems.

Given that this is sudden -- do you have ANY IDEA if he possibly got into something horribly tainted?  LIke could he have gotten into bad meat or anything out of the trash??? 

It's hard to tell with the liver.  But if you have any idea that you can, I'd go to Gainesville.  They will have an ultrasound and everything THERE.  It's a wonderful place -- it would likely give you the absolutely best chance that you have. 

If you read this tonight and want to start early to get there -- they will welcome you.  I've flown in there by the seat of my pants and brought a dog in during the middle of the night.  They're really nice folks. 

DO ASK to **also** see Dr. Xie.  Let them do whatever they have to do to stabilize Brownie -- but then also ask to have Dr. Xie's people see him.  It will help if anything can.

Yes, I second trying to get to Gainsville to the vet school hospital. They'll have the team of docs right there that can help Brownie (and it sure sounds like he hasn't given up!) and they have TVCM there, too. And, great job getting the milk thistle and SAM-e so late at night!

Sending lots of prayers and healing energy for Brownie and hugs for you.

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as devastated as I am I came to give an update on brownie,

unfortunally this morning we had to make the  to let him go.

they did a blood test and in less than 24hrs he had lost over half of the blood he had yesterday and I was told that if we did the transfusion that most likely tomorrow he will be in the same boat losing the blood, and needing another transfusion,  and that if we didnt do the transfusion he would die today, basically to keep him alive we would be having to get transfusions, and I couldnt afford $2000 for each  of the transfusions. I wish I could as I wouldve never let him go.. and I feel horrible, but  I was in shock,  I went there with so much hope that things would work out as he was eating and with the prednisone he even went out to urinate, I was excited and thought he would be ok but he wasnt it was all due to the prednisone, my husband also said that he had a tumor on the side of his abdomen that when he touched it hurt him alot, so brownie was suffering quietly, as not once did i hear him hurting.

we were going to take him to the univ of florida pet hospital but its 5 hrs away and we didnt know if he would make it, plus we work and couldnt be out of work to go to gainsville so it was a heartbreaking decision.

anyway  I talked to my vet and she said that he probably would not make it to tomorrow, I was afraid that he would be in pain if we took him home, and  we decided to let him go, the decision has broken my heart in a million pieces and I cant stop crying, my blood pressure is really bad, I woke up to check on him all night just wishing he would make it to today to get his transfusion, my husband told me i am afraid you would die before the dog , thats how bad i was..and I couldnt even handle letting him go so my husband had to be there with him, he took some roast beef which brownie loved gave him some water spent some time with him and then it was time, my husband was so devasated. he came home and has been in tears all day... he says its the worst thing he has ever had to do, he said he glad i wasnt there as I probably would have gotten really sick,. but GUILT is setting in because brownie  probably wondered where is my mama! the guilt is killing me because I feel we didnt do enough for him, yes we took brownie to the vet all the times, but why didnt we just do the transfusion this last time and go against my doctors orders, anyway I feel that since he was still had those lively eyes and was eating/drinking that he wouldnt die, but  I knowthat  he was dieing inside, but its hard to understand this, its too much to take in, I almost feel like a criminal, having let him go.

and the worst part is that when the vet told me on saturday that we should euthanize  him brownie looked at me with his big eyes as almost telling me, mommy dont let her do that to me! the guilt is killing me, and the questions WHY didnt I do this for him or that for him.

Oh gosh, I am SO SO sorry ((((hugs)))) don't feel guilty, you did absolutely everything you could for Brownie and sometimes, as horrible as it feels, it's time to help a beloved dog go peacefully. Take heart in the fact that you did right by him, and he's without pain now. When I helped my Roscoe cross, I spent the night in the hospital and was on heavy sedation for awhile. There is nothing wrong with seeing a doctor if you're short circuiting right now. Anti-anxiety medication they'll give you doesn't make it all go away, but it allows you to process what has happened in a way that isn't completely overwhelming. If you're having panic attacks, do see your Dr.

Rest in peace, sweet Brownie.