Need Advise Please

I'm heading out but will check back shortly.

When you say "they" are you referring to your sister or the Vet?  If it is the Vet, I would certainly get a second opinion if it wasn't even biopsied.

Deb W.

Some vets get this "oh it's probably a cancer - it's a waste of time, put the dog to sleep" attitude.

This is also a golden, which tends to be a breed that gets cancer a lot -- be that as it may, he may be assuming based on breed, location of the bump, etc.

Years ago when we had Socks -- she came up with a lump under her jaw -- and I had THREE VETS tell me "aww, lymphoma -- either put her to sleep or just let her go".  It was a rescue we'd worked hard on and man, I was shattered.  But she'd been on a treatment for heartworms that was long-term and I knew it had left her immune system weak.  My vet KNEW how hard we'd worked so he said "short of putting a ton of money into testing, let's just TRY a course of Baytril and see.

Two weeks later -- lump gone.  All the vets who had said to put her to sleep were astonished.  It was simply an infection in the lymph glands (right IN the gland) rather than lymphoma.  Now, I was doing ALL I could do to boost her immune system, went to a grain-free diet (that was my first experience with a cancer diet like 11-12 years ago)

Yes, it could be cancer.  But it could also be an abscess or just plain an infection of a bunch of different stuff (there are a lot of things there -- depending on where the bump is -- teeth, eustacian tube, inner ear, glands -- all sorts of things back in there).

An abscess should be painful, but the teeth may or may not look bad.  However -- I would think it would be worth at least a course of antibiotics to FIND OUT even if they don't have testing done.

There are some things not easily biopsied -- but then usually they can do an aspirate and LOOK at it -- but then some vets seem to be total strangers to a microscope.

Given *YOUR* history with this vet I'd say it merited another look by another vet. 

Thanks for the replies.  By they I mean the vets.

calliecritturs

However -- I would think it would be worth at least a course of antibiotics to FIND OUT even if they don't have testing done.

In the meantime I'm going to pass on the info to my sister to see what she says.

Thanks again.

Johnny&Tessy

I forgot to mention that they (vet) had him on a two week course of antibiotics (cephalexin 1750mg twice daily) and the size did not go down. 

Could still be an infection if that was just not the right antibiotic.

I would get a second and third opinion!  I cannot understand why they put the dog under then didn't do the biopsy.  Just because they thought maybe it's inoperable doesn't mean they couldn't at least find out what it is.  I'd want to know either way what I was dealing with whether it could be operated on or not.  I'd want to know what she had and what I could expect and what I could do to keep her comfortable, etc. 

They sent the dog home basically to die!!!  Yeah, I don't understand this myself.

What would be the best kind of antibiotic to tell them to give I wonder.  I big gun or is there maybe something that might work a bit better.

From what my sister was saying...and I don't fully understand cancer...the vet said they say roots going into the jaw area!!!  Doesn't sound right to me...does it?  She also muttered something about mushroom top....does that sound familiar?  None of this sounds familiar to me.

Poor guy.  I'm going to try to convince them to get another opinion.

Johnny&Tessy

They sent the dog home basically to die!!!  Yeah, I don't understand this myself.

Like I said, some vets really are apt to think "It's just a dog -- get another" -- NOT my way.

Johnny&Tessy

What would be the best kind of antibiotic to tell them to give I wonder.  I big gun or is there maybe something that might work a bit better.

Probably something relatively strong -- like Baytril or Cipro.  Both are broad-spectrum and work on most anything.

Johnny&Tessy

the vet said they say roots going into the jaw area!!!  Doesn't sound right to me...does it?

Which could also indicate abscess -- dunno --

Johnny&Tessy

She also muttered something about mushroom top....does that sound familiar?  None of this sounds familiar to me.

This vet doesn't strike me as partiularly holistic -- but there are mushrooms  -- maitake and reishi in particular that are used to halt the spread of cancer. 

I will send you the list of herbs/antioxidants that Dr. Clemmons gave me.  And a cancer diet will give them the best shot at maximizing any time she has.

Here is a site that's pretty easy to understand.  It does have some sort of graphic pictures-I don't think it's anything too horrible but I hate being surprised by stuff like that.  And, itdoes mention what "roots" are. 

http://www.vetsurgerycentral.com/oral_tumors.htm

 I agree with everyone else; she needs to get a second opinion. Sending healing vibes for your sister's dog.

 I would have your sister get a second opinion. That said, yes they would be able to tell the difference between an abscess and a tumor. They're markedly different in appearance, feel, etc. Oral tumors can be nasty, and I'm guessing they felt something that gave them pause.

Some tumors, particularly some of the nasty ones, can "root" back. I'm guessing they're feeling this.  Sometimes cutting into a tumor can seem to make it accelerate growth..and the oral tumors can be particularly nasty. BUT, before deciding against a biopsy, all of the options should have been discussed with the owners, since the dog was already anesthetized. Some owners are fine with debulking a tumor, even knowing that it's something nasty, to give the dog some comfort.  And many owners would rather have a definitive answer, rather than have what ifs.

The brown drool doesn't say abscess to me...that would be pus/blood and the abscess would empty and be flat. And, again, they're extremely different looking. Oral tumors can cause that brown drool..it can be smelly and a bit icky. In fact, the only two dogs I've seen with that brown drool have both had severely advanced oral tumors. One dogs tumor encased the jaw..it was debulked twice at the owner's request, but both times it did come back. That said, it was peach sized at that time...quite advanced.

I would most certainly have your sister seek a second opinion if she wants a definitive answer and if her current vet isn't interested in helping her seek it. I doubt it is simply a vet "writing off" a dog with cancer..he's likely seen oral tumors and is giving his opinion. HOWEVER, that isn't a choice for him to make...further diagnostics should always be a choice for the owner, not for a vet to make for them.

This sounds sort of scary.  Johnny, any update from your sister? 

Thanks for the advise and thoughts.

Apparently they aren't going to seek further help.  They're convinced that it's not treatable and are just going to try and make his final days as enjoyable as possible.  I tried my hardest to talk them into getting a second opinion but they still decided against it.  I'll have to respect their wishes I guess.

The tumor does appear to be growing fast.  Not sure what that means as far as a timeline goes but it can't be good.

I'll keep you updated.