Bloody stool and vomit??

I also wonder about your prey theory. My cats will catch and eat live animals on a daily basis. Why dont our dogs . If they need meat why dont they catch and eat meat like my cats? My dogs had the chance when we lived in Mexico. Chickens turkeys and many small animals were available to them every day and not once did they try to catch and eat one of these. Makes me think they dont need them as much as you think. I have to fence the garden so they dont help themselves to the veggies and fruit. Oh and on the veggie front we buy organic and grow our stuff at home with non genetically altered seed.

Dawnben

I also wonder about your prey theory. My cats will catch and eat live animals on a daily basis. Why dont our dogs . If they need meat why dont they catch and eat meat like my cats?

Your dogs lack a strong prey drive.  That doesn't mean that they don't need animal products in their diet.  Dogs with a strong prey drive are often eliminated from the gene pool because they go after domestic animals or small pets.  Cats are not usually destroyed for killing small birds and rodents, so we have not tinkered with their gene pool regarding that trait. 

Your dogs go after veggies and fruit because they taste sweet.  Children get excited about desert, but they need their meat/fish, vegetables, and grains.  Children do very well without sweets and dogs do very well without plant matter. 

If you want your dogs to eat prey, teach them!  Slice open a whole, raw prey animal and give it to your dogs when they are hungry.  After that put them in a pen with a couple of the same animals (but alive).  Odds are good that the dogs will kill the animals when they get hungry.  Once the dogs get a taste for meat and if they are allowed to hunt, you may find that they don't eat nearly as much of your vegetarian mix. 

If a vegetarian diet for a dog is not properly supplemented (e.g. taurine), they can develop deficiencies.  Dogs can produce their own taurine, but if they don't produce enough (due to age or genetics) and can't get more from their diet (best source is raw heart muscle), they will develop heart problems (dilated cardiomyopathy).  [By the way dog foods low in methionine and cystine will also inhibit a dog's ability to produce taurine.]

Dogs can thrive on a vegetarian diet (not a vegan diet) that is done well, but it is not easy.  One must use supplements for some nutrients not produced by plants.  A previous post gave you a link that describes the supplementation that a vegetarian dog should get. 

Feeding a dog a varied, raw meat/fish diet removes the risks of malnutrition that can be produced by other types of diets. 

Note:  The difference between a vegan and a vegetarian is that a vegan eliminates all animal products from the diet - including dairy.  Vegetarians do not eat meat, fish, or poultry, but might eat animal-derived products such as eggs, milk, cheese, or yogurt.

Dawnben

Most vets dont know anything about nutrition. They get their information from the dog food companies that dont want your dog to eat human food because then how would they make any money.

Agreed!  Thank goodness that most vet schools are starting to teach more about canine nutrition!!

Dawnben

My dog is meat intolerant and did not do well on commercial vegetarian diet either I cooked for him as a last resort.

Can you please tell us more about what you mean by "meat intolerant"?  That is such a vague term.  What have you tried and what are his symptoms?

He doesn't tolerate raw meat, home-cooked meat, or commerical dog foods?  What meats have you tried?  Have you attempted an elimination diet to identify a problem ingredient (even supplements can be an issue)?  Have you tried adding digestive enzymes to a meat diet?  Does he throw up food, have diarrhea/constipation, or develop liver trouble?  Etc. 

If your dog is doing well on his current vegetarian diet, plus adequate supplements, I am not suggesting that you change anything.  The number one thing is to feed a dog what his system can tolerate!!  I just wonder what the underlying issue is. 

Dawnben

I cook a specific diet for my dogs to make sure it is balanced and give them vitamins and minerals to supplement any thing they might be missing like taurine that they cant get from veggies.

Glad to hear about the supplements!!  The folks that try to make their dogs into vegans (no animal-derived products) are the ones who wind up with sick dogs.

My dogs prey drive is extremely high. He used to sit on a gofer hole for hours to catch one but he never ate one. I think he was feeding the cats I have tried to feed all meats, raw, cooked, commercial to my dog and it causes chronic gastritis , He ate grass every morning to throw up and rid his stomach of the built up acid. The only help I got from 3 vets was to put him on Tagament or something like that to take care of the acid . I started cooking for him after that and cured the problem. With in one week of removing meat from his diet his stomach problems stopped and have not returned and that was over a year ago. My dogs are not vegans they eat cheese and eggs. I also give them a veterinarian recommended vitamin and mineral supplement and flax seed for the amino acids.

I just feel the huge need to add a proviso on this -- Dawn is responsible for her crew and that's fine.

But **long term** (and by "long term" I mean 2-6 years) a vegetarian diet for a dog with no meat tends to cause cardiomyopathy and other heart problems. 

Simply put -- altho every vegetarian diet for a dog (including both raw, homecooked and commerical) all rely on supplemented L-Carnitine and Taurine to supply the dogs heart needs.  But the sad fact is that they just don't absorb those supplements nearly as well from a "supplemented" form as they do from real meat.

VERY often this type of heart disease is absolutely undetectable until the heart simply begins not to function well - it tends to be *very* sudden, and it tends to be at least two years and sometimes 4-5 years into vegetarian feeding.  EAch dog is different, and I'm sure it also is dependant on the supplementation.

I have MANY vet friends who are both vegetarian and vegan.  If you think about it, it makes sense -- they spend YEARS in school learning how to SAVE the lives of animals.  So not wanting to eat animals is kind of more typical of vets than you might imagine.

In particular I have 3 vet friends (one of whom is my holistic vet) who are veg*n and who have specialized in nutrition.  And they also have the additional studies that have been done, along with simply the data they see come into their practices and at the University of dogs who have been reared vegetarian for several years who then zoom into major heart problems at around age 5 - 7. 

It's simply that the heart weakens over time -- and coupled with the onset of aging, the heart problems begin.  The profile is very very same time and time again when they have encountered dogs that have been put on vegetarian diets.  Vegetarianism tends to be common in a college town (particularly when the college's prime focus is veterinary studies and human health/cancer studies) so the treatment pool has not been small.

I have attended many seminars up there and in every heart seminar there is *always* a mention of the dangers of vegetarianism for dogs.  Simply because the body doesn't absorb taurine and l-carnitine sufficiently from a supplement.

Dogs are naturally carnivores but they can live easily as omnivores IF the vegetable matter with cellulose is broken down sufficiently for their bodies to absorb.  But there must be meat in the diet in sufficient quantity to provide that basic need for taurine and l-carnitine. 

If I had a dog that seemed "meat intolerant" I would be investigating a far wider possibility of different types of meat, different ways to cook it or serve it raw (and if raw then different suppliers because there could easily be an intolerance to antibiotics and preservatives that may be IN the flesh itself prior to butcherine). 

It would be a most difficult situation to be in -- if if longevity is your aim, then you might want to re-think that.

Dawnben

I have tried to feed all meats, raw, cooked, commercial to my dog and it causes chronic gastritis

This suggests something like a problem with the production of digestive enzymes.  Have you tried supplementing those?

As an experiment you might try giving a small amount of raw heart (chicken? turkey?) along with digestive enzymes to see if your dog can tolerate it.  It wouldn't take a lot of raw heart to give him a sufficient taurine supplement. 

I bet the other dogs would consider raw heart a great treat!

Dawnben

He used to sit on a gofer hole for hours to catch one but he never ate one.

He may not have recognized the gofer as food. 

 My dogs (with the exception of the Chinese Crested, who views all small animals as "babies";) have all caught and eaten wild animals on a regular basis, AND they have all been crazy about carrion, which is characteristic of an opportunistic carnivore. They've also all eaten various vegetation, and pooped it out whole.

From a vet you seen to respect calliecritturs ------------ I will repeat what Dr. Jean Dodds said and I quote " Dogs originally were carnivores, but we've evolved them to be omnivores ," explains Dr. Dodds DMV, An expert in canine nutrition and holistic medicine. Its possible for a dog to be a vegetarian just as its possible for a human to be. ( the same can not be said of cats that are true carnivores. Also, the belief that there are proteins that can be found only in meat is a fallacy. All meat and vegetable protiens are broken down in the gut into amino acids, its the amino acids that are absorbed, Says Tony Buffington DMV Professor of veterinary clinical sciences at the Ohio State University Veterinarian Hospital. It doesn't matter where the protein comes from, and most vegetarians are very good about combining foods to create complete proteins. Dr Dodds said that she would worry about a large breed puppy being fed only a vegetarian diet and suggests including fresh bone or supplements

I have no problems with what she said -- but remember "omnivore" does NOT equal vegetarian.  An omnivore eats BOTH veg matter and meat/fish.

Dawnben

From a vet you seen to respect calliecritturs ------------ I will repeat what Dr. Jean Dodds said and I quote " Dogs originally were carnivores, but we've evolved them to be omnivores ," explains Dr. Dodds DMV, An expert in canine nutrition and holistic medicine. Its possible for a dog to be a vegetarian just as its possible for a human to be. ( the same can not be said of cats that are true carnivores. Also, the belief that there are proteins that can be found only in meat is a fallacy. All meat and vegetable protiens are broken down in the gut into amino acids, its the amino acids that are absorbed, Says Tony Buffington DMV Professor of veterinary clinical sciences at the Ohio State University Veterinarian Hospital. It doesn't matter where the protein comes from, and most vegetarians are very good about combining foods to create complete proteins. Dr Dodds said that she would worry about a large breed puppy being fed only a vegetarian diet and suggests including fresh bone or supplements

 

Dogs are NOT vegetarians.  If you wanted to prove that, you could study wild dogs and see what they eat instinctively.  FWIW, I never see any coyotes in my neighborhood munching on lettuce supplemented with taurine.  They eat rabbits, mice, and whatever other fleshy little devils they can catch.  Omnivore is not vegetarian, and I suspect if you wrote to Dr. Dodds, she would tell you the same.  Home made diets that are based on partial or  incomplete information can be quite dangerous to your dog's long term health.  If your dog has issues with all meats, then you should review that problem with a vet, a holistic one, if necessary.  But, otherwise, if you want to feed a wholesome DOG diet, you need to provide what dogs need, not what you want your dog to need because you may have vegan politics. 

Dawnben

I will repeat what Dr. Jean Dodds said and I quote

Please give the source when you quote someone.  In your post I couldn't tell whether some of the text was yours or whether it was a quote from Dr. Dodds or Dr. Buffington.

Dawnben

Dr Dodds said that she would worry about a large breed puppy being fed only a vegetarian diet and suggests including fresh bone or supplements

Large breed and small breed puppies are the same species.  They require the same nutrients.  Only the required volume of each nutrient may differ.

Dawnben

It doesn't matter where the protein comes from, and most vegetarians are very good about combining foods to create complete proteins.

This seems to be a statement about humans.  The ability to absorb proteins or amino acids from vegetation does differ between humans and dogs.  Most raw vegetation consumed by dogs goes right out the other end.

Dawnben

From a vet you seen to respect calliecritturs ------------ I will repeat what Dr. Jean Dodds said and I quote " Dogs originally were carnivores, but we've evolved them to be omnivores ," explains Dr. Dodds DMV, An expert in canine nutrition and holistic medicine. Its possible for a dog to be a vegetarian just as its possible for a human to be. ( the same can not be said of cats that are true carnivores. Also, the belief that there are proteins that can be found only in meat is a fallacy. All meat and vegetable protiens are broken down in the gut into amino acids, its the amino acids that are absorbed, Says Tony Buffington DMV Professor of veterinary clinical sciences at the Ohio State University Veterinarian Hospital. It doesn't matter where the protein comes from, and most vegetarians are very good about combining foods to create complete proteins. Dr Dodds said that she would worry about a large breed puppy being fed only a vegetarian diet and suggests including fresh bone or supplements

 

Dogs are NOT vegetarians.  If you wanted to prove that, you could study wild canids and see what they eat instinctively.  FWIW, I never see any coyotes in my neighborhood munching on lettuce supplemented with taurine;-)  They eat rabbits, mice, and whatever other fleshy little devils they can catch.  Omnivore is not vegetarian, and I suspect if you wrote to Dr. Dodds, she would tell you the same.  Dogs' dentition alone proves that they are designed to eat meat.  Home made diets that are based on partial or  incomplete information can be quite dangerous to your dog's long term health.  If your dog has issues with all meats, then you should review that problem with a vet, a holistic one, if necessary.  But, otherwise, if you want to feed a wholesome DOG diet, you need to provide what dogs need despite any vegan politics to the contrary. 

spiritdogs

your dog has issues with all meats, then you should review that problem with a vet, a holistic one, if necessary.  But, otherwise, if you want to feed a wholesome DOG diet, you need to provide what dogs need, not what you want your dog to need because you may have vegan politics. 

Dawnben seems to be feeding this primarily vegetarian diet due to her dog's digestive problems, not to vegan politics. 

janet_rose

spiritdogs

your dog has issues with all meats, then you should review that problem with a vet, a holistic one, if necessary.  But, otherwise, if you want to feed a wholesome DOG diet, you need to provide what dogs need, not what you want your dog to need because you may have vegan politics. 

Dawnben seems to be feeding this primarily vegetarian diet due to her dog's digestive problems, not to vegan politics. 

exactly thank you for recognizing that.

Dawnben

janet_rose

spiritdogs

your dog has issues with all meats, then you should review that problem with a vet, a holistic one, if necessary.  But, otherwise, if you want to feed a wholesome DOG diet, you need to provide what dogs need, not what you want your dog to need because you may have vegan politics. 

Dawnben seems to be feeding this primarily vegetarian diet due to her dog's digestive problems, not to vegan politics. 

exactly thank you for recognizing that.

 

But, you are doing it on your own evaluation of the issue and not from the results of any significant testing, from what I read (please correct me if I'm wrong).  Testing is expensive, but it may lead you to a deeper understanding of what's going on, and you may be able to deal with it more intelligently with ALL the facts, rather than just your own suppositions.