was scared to post this but I really need more help and I know you guys can help...

    • Gold Top Dog

    was scared to post this but I really need more help and I know you guys can help...

    I dont wont to get yelled at, so please dont.

    I have had Feora since she was 8 weeks old, she is 2 now.

    I have gone through being upset about this and have even went through some depresion for a little while because I feel like such a bad dog mom.. I finally decided to just woman up, deal with whats going on, find a way to fix this at all ends. Enjoy the joy part and just do better. Out of 37 years of having dogs most of my life, this is the first this has happened with me and Im not getting all the info and help I realy need.. I feel lost with this..

    My Feora is pregnant. She has silent heat. Knowing that its hard to tell when she is in heat we have to keep a close eye on her. ALL the time!! While I was at work one day, my husband goes out with Feora while she goes potty. I had told him that I was wondering... maybe she could be.. so of course his friend comes over and starts to talk to him and while my husband is talking, Feora sneaks off to the back on her own. When he realizes she went around back with out him, he goes back to check on her and caught her in the act. He interupted them and when he told me what happened after getting home, I said that being interupted would mean more likely, no puppies. Later, well, I was wrong. She is now heavy pregnant, I am told 2 months is gestation. I dont remember when it was that it happened because I was so sure that she wouldnt have gotten pregnant off of something interupted that I didnt write it down... or even give it abother thought other then that was a close call, we need to save for her to get fixed.

    I have a page up on facebook called "Feora's puppies". I am looking for homes that will hopefully stick around for updates. Would like to use the page to kind of keep track of them if I can. I seem to have some people watching, one of them, I know for sure might get one. I talk to her off the page a lot now. One person there had Feora's brother. And the guy who has Feora's mother isnt friends of the page but he watches and my 10 yr old daughter is on it. Everyone else, I dont know if they are just watching or might be wanting one. No one really talks on it. So I keep info posted. The notes and info tabs are full of stuff and I have some things in discusions. I feel kind of alone in it even though I get comments here and there, asking if there is any other news. I am stressed about the pups and Feora. Im so scared of something going wrong. But I keep thoughs fears to myself and am exited for the pups in front of my children. I am exited as far as, well, its life.. they are here regardless, might as well love them. I know this sounds dumb.. but I realy do love them and worrie about them like I did when I was pregnant. I have never had pups born around me and realy want them to be okay. I dont know what to do.

    I have decided on a 15 dollar adoption fee to go towards the momma's spay. I am shareing some about our trails and stuff.

    Yesterday after the vets closed, Feora jumped from the side of the pourch up onto the pourch as always and her tummy caught on the pourch and threw her back down. She got back up and jumped it again. The puppies are kicking but she has a rash like mark around a teet where the pourch caught her and is swollen. Today when the vets open, Mike is making her an appointment and we are having her checked out. I feel so bad.. I should have known better then to let her do that.. I could have really hurt her by not preventing it so I cant wait to have the vet look at her.

    I get people who ignore me or yell. Its been hard finding someone who will help us know what to do and answer questions. I have been looking things up on the internet but is still left with questions.

    I was scared to post this but decided that the help with Feora and her pups was more important to get then to be scared.

    Thanks for your time, Stef

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Oh, and I started to feed her puppy food because I read to that she needed it now.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm glad you posted here and I wouldn't dream of yelling at you.  You aren't the first person to have an oops litter.  I hope Feora is ok and that the pups are healthy when they arrive. 

    What kind of help do you need?   Whelping advice?  Feeding?  Socializing the pups?   Emotional support?   Take a deep breath and don't waste any more time on guilt and get ready for those puppies to arrive! :)

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Pretty much.. all of the above!! I dont know anything about birthing pups. What is the best food for her, shes a lab/golden. The dad is a lab/chow mix. What does she need for haveing them? Are blankets okay? I thought about a tarp under a blanket for birth because we rent our home. My husband thinks may not be a good idea. How do I know if she needs help or if shes okay, just stand by and let her do it? How do I know if she got all the pups out and none are left inside?

    Thanks..

    • Gold Top Dog

    How many is an average amount of pups?

    • Gold Top Dog

     First of all, Jackie is right, you are not the first to have an oops litter.  But, now, there are some puppies coming in to the world who will displace some other dogs who might need homes - puppies are cute, and when they arrive, older dogs often don't get adopted.  So, you can see the importance of always spaying or neutering a pet, because as much as you think you can prevent it, accidents do happen.  I'm concerned because I didn't see you post that you had taken her to the vet, and that should be the first thing to do.  Your vet can advise you about how many puppies there are (they have ultrasound for dogs, too) and can help you address feeding and nutrition for mom and pups.  Another reason for spaying is the expense of whelping a litter and properly caring for it.  Maybe Gina or Glenda will be along to address your questions on the whelping and feeding issues.  I'm only expert in training and behavior and not this aspect of husbandry.  With regard to the puppies, however, please read thes articles, as you will want to start the socialization process prior to them going to their new homes, and you will want to advise the new owners, too:

    Position statements, especially the one on puppy socialization.  It might be nice to print them all and send them home in a "puppy pack"

    http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=80&Itemid=366

    Lots of info on puppy development, plus the common problems owners will encounter:

    http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/

    Feeding the pregnant and lactating bitch (with kilocalorie amounts by size of dog)

    http://www.gundogsonline.com/Article/feeding-the-gestating-and-lactating-dog-Page1.htm

    Choosing healthy food ingredients:

    http://www.naturapet.com/images/choosing_a_food.pdf

    Good puppy foods:

    http://www.naturapet.com/search/

    Re the need for a more calorie dense food for bitches (example, Innova has about twice the kCal of some of the commercial supermarket foods)

    http://www.akc.org/breeders/resp_breeding/Articles/careandfeeding2.cfm

    • Gold Top Dog

    Anne, I believe she said her husband was taking her to the vet today.  Steph, I would suggest you go with your husband to the Vet if at all possible.  Make notes and ask questions.  Here is some info I found in a quick search.  Please be prepared for the fact that there can be complications with the birthing process.  You may want to prepare your children for the possibility of something going wrong.  Ask at the Vet about Care Credit to help with expenses. 

    http://www.peteducation.com/category.cfm?c=2+1624

    http://www.carecredit.com/vetmed/

    • Gold Top Dog

    Stef -- they will try to sneak to have the pups alone -- someone needs to be with her ALL the time (and keep her gated in the room with the whelping box so she *can't* sneak off). 

    The girls who have had pups will be along to help you (and I'm gonna email Glenda and Gina). 

    On the other end -- $15 *at least* -- because if someone isn't willing to put ANY money into getting a puppy then they won't *ever* be willing to take that pup to the vet and have it spayed/neutered, etc.

    Get IN WRITING that people will spay/neuter.

    Call around to various counties and see if any of them have low-cost spay/neuter programs (call your local animal control and ASK) -- and you can then tell folks to go get it done when the pups are 8 weeks old -- or you can make it part of the adoption fee because you really **should NOT** place them prior to that.  In fact, in most every single state in the United States it is actually illegal to place pups prior to 8 weeks of age (they need ALL that time with their litter mates to enforce good bite inhibition and for proper development, and they need to *not* be vax'd prior to 8 weeks).

    That way you can give adopters an information packet and I'd have them sign a contract **with you** stating where/when they'll get them spayed/neutered and that if they ever decide they can't/won't keep the pup it will come back to YOU for placement (rather than winding up on death row somewhere).

    NOW is a really good time to take your kids to the local Animal Control -- let them see what it's like for a dog who gets dumped vs. what *you* are trying to do in being responsible and ensuring that the pups get really GOOD homes.  (you rock, by the way -- we all learn by our mistakes and the fact that you're willing to do the right thing is the best example you can be to your kids!!)

    These are life lessons -- but they ARE hard ones because this is more work than you have any idea you've bitten off.  Because it's not just "having puppies" (which is a ton and a half of work) -- but you gotta get X no. of squirmy, cute, poopy, pee-everywhere, rambunctious puppies reared to an appropriate age to place - you gotta BEGIN as soon as weaned, to teach them how to go *outside* to potty, and all that good junk. 

    But this is the same time you teach your kids "You know -- we ALL screw up in life -- and THEN we gotta do the *right* things to get ourselves out of trouble -- so please don't ever be afraid to come to me and own up to doing something stellarly stupid ... I may not be happy, and you may get grounded or something, BUT we will figure out the right thing to do, we WILL work together because we're a family and families take care of each other **just** like we're going to take care of Feora and her puppies."

    And you can come here and whine, moan and vet and we'll all help prop you up.  *Because* you are doing the right thing and you've learned your lesson.

    Lots of people choose to wait to spay a pup until 1st or 2d heat for growth reasons, but it's inherent in that to prevent an oops litter.  You guys are responsible enough to deal (and everything Spiritdogs said about new puppies then making it so older dogs don't get adopted is, unfortunately, true cos everyone LOVES puppies). 

    HOWEVER -- you really can *not* trust anyone who adopts to spay/neuter just on their own.  Times are hard for a lot of folks, and it's just too easy to let it slide.  Speuter at 8 weeks may not be the optimum choice for a lot of people BUT it can truly be the responsible decision for all.  Then you don't wind up getting one of these pups back in 10-12 months **pregnant** herself. 

    So ask around about contracts and what to say and do.  Even if you figure in the cost of a low-cost spay/neuter at 8 weeks and have people pick them up the day you get them back from the speuter -- then you can rest easy knowing that some of Feora's pups don't continue to make more and more puppies that will wind up on death row.  If she has 8 puppies and each of those procreates 8 more puppies .... in a year's time that's a huge number.

    That's what I mean about it being such an awesome opportunity to teach your own kids how one small moment in time -- one *small* oops opportunity, then has such incredibly far-reaching potential.  On the other end of this (like in 10 years) I'm betting you will look back on this as one of the best life lessons in "CYA" that you can ever give to your own children. 

    When I was 19 I pulled a little pom/peke mix literally **off the road** in front of my parents house.  She was about 6 months old.  She was heavy with MILK.  Some idiot drowned her puppies and dumped her out of a moving car.  I took to have her spayed 3 weeks later (milk dried up, looked back to normal) and the vet was absolutely flummoxed because she WAS only about 6 months old and was at least 3 weeks post birth but she didn't even have her adult teeth yet.  He confirmed she wasn't a day over 6 1/2 months old at that time. 

    She changed MY Life.  I've cried many tears over those sweet pups who were killed.  But oh the lessons I learned from her.  37 years later I still tear up thinking of those poor wee pups (and how much I wish she'd lived forever).

    Steph -- good for you.  I'm sorry you've felt depressed about this -- but you'll turn this to gold in "life lessons".  And your kids will always remember Feora -- even when they are MY age.  If you can feel this (((hug))) that's me. 

    And see if your local library has Giffen and Carlson's "Dog Owners Home Veterinary Handbook -- it's got an awesome chapter on birthing and directions for an easy whelping box to make (you need the box - not just blankets) -- you'll need to contain the pups too -- but the girls who have done puppies can help you on that better than anyone else.

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Pupsday

    How many is an average amount of pups?

    well if you are at the vet, get her xrayed. It will show you an aprox number of pups, their position...any obvious deformities and relative size, and also...if you can see skeletons readily you know she is close, about a week to 10 days out from whelping.

    Starting today, take her temperature twice a day...bitches in whelp typically experience a DROP in temp of a full degree or three 12-24 HOURS BEFORE WHELPING. That means she will be running around 99-101...when it takes a nosedive to 98-97 and stays down several hours you are about to get busy with a whelping bitch within the day.

    Many bitches will not eat the day of whelping, but chow hounds typically try...tho they may vomit. Seeking of densites will be become an obsession. CONFINE your bitch starting now, wherever you are whelping her. This is best in a QUIET, INDOOR AREA. A walk in closet is good. Put in say the bottom of a plastic dog crate, dog house, or plastic wading pool...enclose this somehow if you can. SOME girls decide to move puppies and you do NOT, want that. Put in some newspapers for her to shred as that will help her work out some anxiety.

    I don't use blankets until the pups are a couple weeks old and very mobile and loud...they can get trapped underneath and suffocate. Use only light things or something so heavy the bitch cannot move it (some nest even after pups are here and will fling them around) I've used yoga mats stuck down with double stick tape, fleece mats, and carpet remnants successfully.

    When she begins to whelp...she will pant...non stop..shivering is common....moaning, long strings of clear mucus may present at her vulva...normal. Green, bloody, foul smelling, or otherwise is a cause to call your vet. So are temps over 102...fever...vet immediately. The first stage may hang around awhile...sometimes a day or more...but she will begin to lump up (belly looks like she has a buncha rocks in it) more often and real contractions will begin. REAL contractions....meaning she will bear down...and push...several times in a row...then settle til the next one.  These are working the pup up and over the pubic bone...into the birth canal. Once these begin? Start timing...she should be able to work up a pup by 2-3 hours....if not she may be in trouble but not always...have your vet on standby.

    Keep water around...and vanilla ice cream. The calcium can help strengthen contractions. Once a water bag is at the vulva birth is imminent. Pups routinely come head or feet first. DO NOT break the sac but if she does so...no biggy. Keep her calm....she may cry out or yelp..but full out screaming might indicate serious distress (this is a judgment call since some bitches are just screamers). Once the pup breaches the pelvis the instinct to bear down is STRONG and she will continue to contract until the pup is expelled. Many times they will dangle by their cords as the placenta detaches and that is okay..some bitches chew the cords at this point...and the pup drops free. Be ready because some bitches are natural mothers and do their jobs...and others have NO idea and want to stomp it or even eat it...be ready with a dry washcloth and if the bitch does not VIGOROUSLY clean that pup (and by doing so clear the mucus from the airways) grab it and rub the HECK outta it...hold it upside down and rub. You should get a squeak if you haven't already. Listen to it...if it sounds bubbly or wet....keep rubbing. Fluid left in a pup is asking for issues later.

    Give the pup back to the bitch if you've taken it and get it nursing. Some do this instinctively others need help. The milk may not be gushing....colostrum is first and it's sluggish. But the pup will get enough...it's nursing will trigger another set of contractions...and we go on til it's done.

    COUNT YOUR PLACENTAS. It's up to you if you let her eat them...I allow one or two but no more. But count them...one for each pup. Retain placentas...are trouble. If you need to cut the cords do so with blunt scissors and tie with thread. Trim thread ends...dip in Betadine.

    Have forumula on hand...and bottles in case you need to feed if Momma freaks out. Or if she has a huge litter. Have heating pads set up in a box to keep babies already here in a warm place out of harms way while another comes out...

    Have bulb syringes like those for babies to suck out mucus from nose AND mouth. Have stacks upon stacks of shop towels or newspapers. Have KY Jelly to lube her vulva if you need to. Have your vet's number on hand or the ER vet because she'll likely go at night.

    Things can go wrong...no pup delivered in 3hours or more concerns me...no contractions when you know there's a pup in there ditto. Seizures in the bitch, attacking the pups, smelly smelly discharge (birth has an odor but it's not unpleasant...just well, birthy)...gushing blood, fever temps, screaming bitch, stuck puppy...all things to go to a vet ASAP for.

    I'll think of more stuff....but if you have further questions lemme know.

    • Gold Top Dog

    You could use a plastic swimming pool for a whelping box.  It will keep the "mess" in one spot and keep the puppies with the mother.  Put down some kind of mat rather than blankets so the pups don't suffocate.

    • Gold Top Dog

    This was very hard, for me to post BUT...I think it may help you.

    This is my bitch Nonnie (who passed on last August Broken Heart) in full labor presenting a puppy. You can observe the panting, and pushing behavior, you can see the bulge at the rear when a puppy is presenting, and a small bit of the actual sac/puppy at the very end. Nonnie was a quiet whelper but some bitches do yelp during the pushing part of the birth...

    I hope this helps you, sometimes seeing something can help us know what to expect better than the printed word.

    LINK HERE

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm late getting on today and had TWO emails to help, but, it looks like I'm too late.  Gina has things very well covered.

    However, don't hesitate to email if you want questions answered on anything.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Man -- a better description I've never seen -- and I cried my way thru seeing Nonnie as well (Gina lost Nonnie in a really horrible accident of nature last summer -- I think it broke the heart of every person on here).  But she's given you an excellent description of when you absolutely *gotta* call for help.  Her descriptions are right on.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I think this was mentioned but be certain to know what vet is open all night in your area. I have delivered 30 litters of puppies. Six of these required a trip to the vet during labor. Out of those 6 trips, 3 probably didn't have to be made and all would have been fine. (Except we did lose one pup from one of those litters for no apparent reason.) Two of the other trips required C-sections and one required oxytocin to induce harder labor. I have had other deliveries that would certainly have required as trip to the vet if I wasn't experienced at whelping and I have lost some pups. I've had to extricate stuck pups a couple of times (and fortunately those had good outcomes). Better safe than sorry, make sure your gas tank is full and you know where the ER vet is.

    The c-sections cost me $750. each. I know of areas where they cost less than half of that and areas where they cost more than double. It depends on where you are. (Our ER vet actually costs less for a c-section than my regular vet though they are higher on most little things. Go figure.) Make sure you have cash or credit card available. Some vets will not do a thing if you don't have the money. A mistake litter is like a car accident. Even if no one blames you it can still cost you a lot.

    I delivered my first litter of pups with a dog who was really really great at it and didn't much need my help. They are not all like that. I was prepared with the book Dog Owner's Home Veterinary Handbook. If you do nothing else I suggest you buy this book today. Read the sections on whelping and raising puppies. Get the stuff they suggest. There is no other reference like it that I know of. (http://www.amazon.com/Owners-Veterinary-Handbook-Howell-reference/dp/0876052014)

    Although I hate to disagree with Gina I never had good results from the temperature taking when I started out. It was just never clear to me. X-rays are a very good idea but if you are really strapped for money I'd use it for supplies instead. If the bitch is not far enough along they won't show in the x-ray anyway. I had someone bring me a preg. bitch once and I went the x-ray route. It did show the pups but it was still a while before they were born, long enough for me to start worrying, and in the end it is always a surprise when they come - even if you planned and are ready.

    I know a lot of people use the plastic kiddy pool for a whelping box. Most of my pups were born on the couch (Yuck you say? Well they are house pets and they like the couch. The leather cleaned up but beware of upholstery. It can get pretty nasty and a whelping bitch may just decide she doesn't want towels under her!) or on the floor and then moved to a crate but we have little ones. I don't know what you use in the bottom of the plastic pool but it has to be something that the little ones can get some traction on. I have rubber crate mats I use cause the infants can't really crawl they scoot and need traction or they'll just look like flipped turtles with arms and legs moving and going nowhere.

    I probably have some useful info for socializing pups and taking care of them at http://www.poodlejunction.com If you need to, call me (but order that book first or see if your local B &N has it. Mine did. And read my website first.) I'm Bunni and I'm at 843.333.9930. I'll help you as much as I can. It may be noble of you to be cheerful in front of your kids but get ready for some reality. I don't know of anything scarier than delivering a litter of puppies especially to a mother dog you adore. I love raising puppies and I love training and cuddling puppies but truth be told the more litters I delivered the less I liked it. Playing God is too nerve wracking for me. If you ever had to decide whether to maybe kill a pup by pulling it out or maybe letting it suffocate because you don't, you'll know what I mean. If not (any lurkers out there) don't put yourself in this position. Spay and neuter your dogs.) Best of luck to you.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Stef I have been a breeder for 30 years and we had our first ever ooops litter this year!   I hired a dog sitter to come in so we could go to all of the grandkid's Christmas Pagents and on day 2 she developed a migraine and sent her color blind teenaged son!  So all the instructoions about the girl with the red collar not going out with any of the boys was for naught... they had one tie and I had 5 puppies on Mardis Gras.  All gorgeous and wanted, it was a breeding we had planeed for later this year but still OOPS happens no matter how careful you are being!

    Now the basics.... gestatation is around 61 days from the date of tie.   At day 58 you start taking her temp when she drops in temp from the 101 102 area to 99 she is with in 24 hours of whelping pups.

    Best one time whelping box is a plastic swiming pool as mentioned before. Because of the breeds you can have anything from 1 to 16 pups.  I do not X ray until she is in her 50 day range. Then the vet can count spines and give you a better guess but it is still a guess.  As puppies can hide and double up in weird ways!!  The only reason to do this is you will have a clue when she is finished.

    Once you hit day 55 she only goes outside ON LEASH....  As mentioned before they like to den and do things on their own this can be good or tragic.  You will be able to better control where she is an waht she is doing. Where ever you establish as her whelping area make sure you begin to confine her to that area.  For the actual whel do NOT use blankets , pillows etc.... puppies can get lost in them and suffocated or  worse. Mommas often lay on their pups by accident. All avoidable. Go to your local Wal Mart they normally have towels for $2.50 each. I get at least a dozen since I can bleach them and believe me they make a huge mess when whelping. I also use the end roll paper that you can get for $10 or less at your local newspaper printer.  That is bleach free, chemical and ink free and easy to cut then toss out as you work through the puppy process.

    If you have an ex pen use it, set it up around the whelping area.  Make up a chart that allows you to note what the sex is, time of birth , if she eats the placenta or if you discard them. Keep a bucket of tepid water on hand , I also keep a bottle of plain pedialyte for bigger litters aas it not only rehydrates but balances the mom a bit, When she begins labor do not allow her outside without being on a lead and you having a towel with you, it is not uncommon for the girl to squat to potty and pop a puppy out!   I caught Number 3 before she hit the ground because I knew this is always a possibliity. She was healthy and well no problems associated with a fall from birth canal or hitting the ground .

    I can talk you through whelping a litter if you need a mid wife coach email me at bwanasrrs@aol.com and we can talk, I don't mind giving you a phone number. Keep in mind the dogs tend to whelp in the middle of the night and they can take hours between pups.  You said you are on Facebook, I am as well and this last litter who is going to their forever homes this week is totally documented with a ton of photos.

    Dogs have been doing this forever, and while yes they can get into trouble , common sense, luck and being ready to drop everything to help her through normally is enough. Good Luck and please don't heastitate to friend me on FB  (Bwanas Rhodesian Ridgebacks or Bonita Snodgrass )and let me see if I can help you get through this adventure. 

    Your girl trusts you to be there and help her through this , together with this group and your vet you can get her through and to a happy puppy status again.

    Hugs

    Bonita of Bwana