Not getting any nutrients from food + chronic ear infections

    • Bronze

    Not getting any nutrients from food + chronic ear infections

     Any ideas or advice?....

    Kismet is 14 and has pretty much suffered from ear infections since she was 6 years old. Tried everything, spent tons of money on the Vet...nothing.  I started using Zymox a few years ago and that seemed to keep the infections away. This past summer my vet decided to go and flush her ear out and I feel like BAD THINGS started after that. She was fine until later in the fall but then her ears started back up again but this time with a vengeance. Right after Thanksgiving she started to get what appears to be really horrible sharp pains SOMEWHERE in her head. I have never seen her act like this before. This dog has the most amazing tolerance for pain. My vet did look in the ear and said there was some infection happening in there and told me to start the Zymox again....that was December. It's now March, we've been to the vet at least every 2 weeks and I'm not getting anywhere. This time they finally gave me something for her pain, Tramadol, but that isn't working either. I'm guessing it's the ear causing the pain only because I've suffered from ear infections too and am well aware of the stabbing pain in the head feeling they give you. Whatever is hurting her is hurting her so bad that the poor thing literally jumps forward, almost like she's propelled by the pain. It happens when she's just laying, it happens when she eats, turns her head, snorts(she's a peke so there's LOTS of snorting!), the darn pain will not go away. Right now she's on Clavamox with the Zymox but I'm not seeing any great results yet.

    Problem #2 

    She's lost almost 2 lbs since the fall. Very boney. My regular vet offered me no explanation for this. They did do blood work that showed one of her liver levels was elevated, ALT I believe it was, but he had said it was no big deal. When I went to the vet this past Friday there was a new Dr. there. He zeroed in on the weight loss and said she wasn't getting any nutrients from her food anymore. I have always made her food from scratch and that's been mostly a chicken diet with rice and veggies with beef slipped in every once and awhile. He recommended a white fish diet with sweet potato and also gave me Denamarin. Like I said I really don't know who this new Dr. was but I did like him. He definitely has roots in eastern medicine. He also felt that the diet change would help the ear infections. I know they can be a result of the food allergies and luckily since I do make her food I know exactly what not to give her now. Bad thing is that my vet seems to be doing a rotating DR thing now so I never know who I'm gonna see there. Very frustrating.

    If anyone can give me a little more insight into either of these issues PLEASE HELP!!! I was thinking of switching over to just the milk thistle when the Denamarin is gone. She's loving the fish/sweet potato but are there other alternatives? I just worry about mercury with all the fish. I want my chubby little egg roll back, pain free :-(

    • Gold Top Dog

    I would start by having a complete blood panel ran to make sure that her body is functioning as it should. 

    If she's eating fish/sweet potato kibble, then I wouldn't worry about the diet for now.

    I'm sure that someone else will chime in about the ears. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Sorry -- I'm going to state it right here -- wrong veterinary approach.

    There are TWO TYPES of ear infections -- most of us that have had dogs with long-term long running "always something with the ears" infections typically have the vet "clean out the ears" and often just hand you tube after tube after bottle after bottle of "stuff" for the ears.  But **typically** it's for yeast ear infections.  Hot moist place that IS truly the perfect place for yeast to grow (and that's why Zymox is for - it's an enzyme). 

    That's fine -- BUT -- it isn't far enough.

    Because very often there is a **bacterial** infection deep in the ear.  Not just yeast.  (that's what the vet is likely seeing saying there is "infection in there";)

    But honestly it was likely time *years ago* for the vet to do a test called a "culture and sensitivity" -- literally they take a swab of the gunk deep  DEEP in the ear and send it to be cultured.  The lab "grows" whatever will grow from that specimen -- and **then** the lab subjects it to several different antibiotics to see what will actually KILL it for sure.

    Clavamox is a good antibiotic (it's a penecillin derivative with a stomach soothant in it).  But it may not be the right antibiotic to kill whatever is in there.

     See it may not be just typical staph.  it can be anything from strep to e-colo it pseudomonas and beyond.

    The vet needs to know **exactly** what will kill THIS bacteria. (and it's a bacterial infection causing the pain -- and frankly it's likely to be pretty far advanced).

    In honesty this vet should have done this LONG ago.  You can't just continually treat a dog for concurrent ear infections.  You have to get to the bottom of it. 

    I speak from sad sad experience, unfortunately.  I had a cocker who had ear infections when we *got* him (at 18 months old). And frankly I messed around with the wrong vets for THREE YEARS.  Always one more tube of yeast stuff, and the vet giving me this and that antibiotic ear "stuff" (usually with something like Genticin in it which is flatly a NOTHING drug - it's great for certain stuff but it is NOT strong).  But altho he cultured it, he would come back and say "Yeah, there's some bacteria in there" and I **NEVER KNEW** he could send it out for this type of test.

    Finally -- I got mega disgusted and went to another vet.  By this time Muffin's ears were mostly swelled shut.  The problem is -- that by the time that happens the ear is usually beyond hope.

    Huh? you ask?? What do I mean "beyond hope"??

    Because as ears as inflamed over a long long period of time the ear canal itself literally begins to turn to bone.  it "ossifies"  as a result of the inflammation (similar to the process of arthritis in a way - that's a Callie explanation)

    But once that flexible ear canal turns to a boney substance the normal veins and arteries and capillaries that FEED the ear blood and carry away waste and provide "life" to those ears -- those blood vessels get shut off. 

    Literally -- oral drugs won't work at all any more -- and the inside of the ear simply putrefies. 

    This can result in an abscess (which is also painful) and if there IS an abscess, and that abscess ruptures and goes to the brain it will kill your dog.

    So how do they fix it?

    You have to remove the ear.  Literally -- it's a process called a bi-lateral ear ablation -- they go in and surgically remove the outer ear (the hole), the inner and middle ear -- the entire ear mechanism is cut out.  Then they flush the surgical area with antibiotic rinse and sew the head shut.

    Ok -- please don't panic and DO read to the end of this.

    It's a difficult surgery but often a life-saving one.  The biggest risk is the fact that there are all sorts of tendons and nerves that go TO the brain thru that little hole it the skull behind the ear.  These tendons and nerves can be encased in that boney substance that used to be flexible ear canal. 

    So when the surgery is done they literally have to scrape that substance off those nerves and tendons --if they inadvertently cut or nick them it can mean the dog won't be able to open/close the eyes or the facial muscles may droop.  Nothing fatal but possibly unsightly.

    Once they close the wound and it heals -- once you lift the ear flap they look sorta like they came from FAO Schwartz (the toy company).  There's no "hole" for the ear any more because it's gone.  Muffin was a cocker and unless you lifted his ear flap you didn't know there was a thing different.

    But he was deaf.

    NOW -- KEEP READING -- if a dog's ear has become **this** infected and the ear has ossified to this point -- trust me, they aren't hearing a thing anyway.  But a dog who has gone deaf "gradually" gets REALLY adept at hiding their deafness.  They feel the vibrations of you walking up on them and know where you are, they feel the air move when a door opens, they feel the air from a squeaky toy and know it's there -- all sorts of things.  But usually they are profoundly deaf **already**.

    When we discovered Muffin's ears were THIS bad, the vet told me the only thing that could really be done was the bi-lateral ear ablation.

    I resisted this with every cell of my body.  To ME it sounded like cutting off your arm at the elbow for a hangnail.  If it was an infection WHY can't they get antibiotics in there?

    All I told you above about how it shuts off the blood to the ear, etc. -- no vet told me that before Muffin's surgery.  I found it out myself. 

    They never do these surgeries two at a time -- they're too severe.

    BUT I can tell you that after the first surgery, Muffin was like a puppy again!!  Literally -- he started chewing everything in sight -- why?  Because it didn't HURT any more!! 

    Most of the time the thing that keeps these ears all riled up all the time is allergies.  Ear canals are mucus membranes and they are just the LOVELIEST tissues for allergies to attack.  That's the reason why your dog's ear problems have seemed to "come and go" iwth a vengeance -- why you can tell when it got "worse" -- simply because it was when whatever he was allergic to flourished (outside or inside -- can be anything from grass/hay fever to dust mites and wallpaper dust, etc.)

    What to do?

    A DIFFERENT VET.  If your regular vet had this kind of knowledge they would have done it before now.  That doesn't mean they are bad (and they're pretty good if they know to use Zymox -- it's a darned good product to use on allergy ears).

    BUT -- at this point you need a specialist.  Now if you have read ANY of my posts you will know I tend to be the one on here who uses an herb or an alternative method if one is available. 

    But it's VERY likely your dog is actually in a serious danger zone.  Because of the pain you are indicating -- THAT is serious.  It honestly may be the ONLY big huge clue you'll get of how extremely severe these are at this point.

    My first suggestion would be to tell you to go to your nearest vet school  It's likely to be WAY more cost-effective.  At a regular specialist vet ... ear ablation surgery is pricey. 

    It honestly should be -- the **good** surgeon will take about 3-4 hours PER SURGERY to do this.  Because it's not just cutting away the ear tissue.  It's what I described above where they have to free each tendon and each nerve very very painstakingly in order to preserve the facial musclesl

    I discovered long ago that it   can be enough cheaper to go to a good vet school than to use a "specialty" local (big city usually) vet.  Even by the  time you consider having to take off work for a day, drive to wherever, and maybe even spend the night -- you can still be a TON of money ahead going to a vet school.  They tend to be cutting edge and yet, since you deal with students, they tend to be very reasonable.

    PLEASE email me if I can help you.  I'm not trying to be an alarmist but frankly I have a really hard time not hating the vet who played with Muffin's ears for so long and never told me there was a TEST (under $100) that would be zeroed in on what antibiotic we should have used.

    Now -- the other thing

    Eastern medicine is good.  If you go to http://www.tcvm.com you will find a locator on the left.  The Chi Institute is a qualifying agency for vet acupuncturists and those who use Eastern herbals.  I honestly doubt that you will completely clear the ears with eastern medicine however, you can go a LONG way to reducing the inflammation.

    In Eastern medicine, btw ... chicken AND rice are considered inflammatory foods.  Meaning -- if there is already inflammation they will make it worse and if the body is merely looking to BE inflamed they'll oblige and make it so.

    Yes, food allergies can cause ear problems HOWEVER, they are not seasonal in nature.  I've homecooked for years -- and honestly, altho there truly *are* food allergies, they are typically secondary.  Seasonal "atopic" allergies are still #1 in amount and will do the most damage to ears (and other parts of the body).  Man you could set your watch by Muffin's (and Billy's - my current cocker).

    You may find this vet on the Chi Institute's list -- they may practice solo or elsewhere.  But you may also find another vet who does Eastern medicine.

    btw -- Denamarin is a combo drug -- Denosyl and Marin.  Denosyl is a pharmaceutical grade of SAM-e (a detox for the liver), and Marin is a pharmaceutical grade of milk thistle.  This vet likely prescribed the Denamarin because the practice you go to may not countenance using herbs. 

    It tends to be pretty popular right now for larger practices to have vets on staff who can offer "holistic" stuff.  But generally that doesn't free that vet to truly follow a holistic path.  Does that make sense?

    Seriously -- I suspect the ear problems are urgent.  You need to get that infection specifically diagnosed -- that is truly Job #1. 

    I suspect that this vet is right -- the dog isn't utilizing it's food and that may simply be because the body is having to deal on such a deep level with severe infection (from the ears). 

    I would wholeheartedly tell you to pursue TCVM (Traditional Chinese Veterinary Medicine) once you get the ear problem diagnosed and dealt with.  Even doing TCVM **with** whatever ear treatment you do will help hugely to give the body the strength to kick off this infection.

    Please don't give up - don't assume your dog is too old to treat.  That's likely NOT the case.

    Holler if I can help.  Callie

    • Gold Top Dog

    As far as mercury - it depends on the fish.  If you stick with a "small" fish -- like whiting or sardines there is far far less problems with mercury -- mercury becomes a problem when you do big fish like salmon and tuna. 

    • Gold Top Dog

     I'd add some digestive enzymes, to help her absorb what she's eating, too.

     

    I groom a dog who's had his ears removed. I groomed him before, and still groom him (by the time I started, his ear canals were like tubes of stone in his head). He is a MUCH happier, sweeter, more fun dog to be around. He finally feels GOOD. It has certainly increased his quality of life, and likely his quantity, too. He is not a young dog, but he certainly feels like one, now.

    • Gold Top Dog

    The difference is like night and day -- when I look back at old pics of Muffin I can SEE the pain in his face, but wow -- that surgery made such incredible difference to him

    • Bronze

     WOW!!!

    I find myself both scared to death and relieved. Callie I have read all your posts before you even answered this one and had already bee lined it to the TCVM site and found a vet near me.

    All I can say now is WOW....kinda speechless. I can't even give my vet credit for the Zymox since I'M the one who discovered it after years of putting all the vet's gunk in her ears. It was actually after her ears cleared up for a time that my vet actually started using the Zymox at his practice. Might I add that he charges 40 bucks for the same bottle of Zymox I buy online for 12 bucks..

     Kismet's already pretty much deaf. She can hear really loud bangs and stuff but other than that nothing. I actually brought up the bi lateral surgery with my vet this past summer after reading all the success stories about it but my vet said no. He opted to just go in there and clean it out, but even after that he told me he couldn't get all the way in because it was so swollen inside......I'm trying not to be angry right...trying.

    Ok I'm taking this info and running with it! Bad thing is I have exhausted most of my account on going to the vet every other week since December and I know what I'm facing is costly. I'm only 40 miles outside of NYC...there must be a good vet school there somewhere. Hopefully one with a pawn shop right next door!

    Callie...everyone...bless you all!!!! I'm scared to death but it's so good to have all your input. I've gotten farther here than I have at the vet's. For you all to take your time to write all this....you guys are guardian angels for sure! I cannot thank you enough.

    Amanda

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Amanda -- there IS a vet school IN the City -- however, to be perfectly honest?  I'd probably go to Cornell if i were you. 

    There is something called "Care Credit" and it's literally a credit card for emergencies for pets.  The interest is stiff but it's better than the alternative.

    BUT call Cornell (you can self refer I'm positive of that) -- and ASK them what a bi-lateral ear ablation might cost for one ear (they probably will not do both ears anyway).  I'm actually from western NY State and I have SEVERAL friends who have used Cornell for many things.  Typically they are a whole lot cheaper than anywhere else -- and it honestly may actually make enough difference for you to be able to drive out there, be seen, and stay over night if you have to.  But then you can call the vet school in the City and compare -- but Cornell tends to be cutting edge for this kind of thing -- and it would be where I would head.

    This would NOT be something that most regular vets would attempt -- now if it was a vet who was a "board certified" surgeon - maybe (but then he probably wouldn't be in solo practice). 

    The vet who screwed up Muffin's ears wanted to do a "Zepp procedure" on Muffin -- he'd gotten a new laser and wanted to "play with it" (he had the audacity to TELL me that which is what finally made me mad enough to get out of there).  A Zepp procedure literally just slices a "V" out of the ear canal -- it leaves it open to infection and generally is rarely done any more because it doesn't work and it leaves the ear canal ripe for more infection.

    See what you can find out by phone -- you may be very surprised.  Also -- if you want to talk on the phone I would be happy to do so -- I can tell you more about cost, etc. -- it's a big surgery but can be a life-extending one. 

    How long have you had her??  This may have aged her prematurely. 

    And just as a side note -- I taught Muffin sign language.  I used to interpret at my church and when I knew he wasn't hearing much I was trying to teach it to him before but he was really good at IGNORING me.

    After the 2d procedure he went thru the same sort of "denial" that humans go thru when faced with a sudden loss.  A few days later however, I was signing to them, as I always do, that David and I were going "for supper" and would "see you soon".

    When I got to the word "supper" (which was the same word I used when giving them THEIR food at night) his eyes got HUGE.  He looked from me to my husband and you could almost see the wheels turn.

    "SHE IS TALKING TO ME -- THEY ARE GOING FOR ***FOOD***  IS THERE A WHITE BOX IN MY FUTURE???????"

    Yep -- just like when Anne Sullivan spelled w-a-t-e-r to Helen Keller for the 99th time SUDDENLY Helen "got it".  MUFFIN GOT IT with that word "supper".

    Once he decided that those funny hand things were WORDS he wanted them all.  He was too funny -- he wanted the WORDS for everything.

    He didn't want to just know that he was going to "the vet" -- nope -- he wanted to have the initial of which vet.  Dr. B or Dr. D?? or Dr. M??? (regular vet, holistic vet, or vet up at Gainesville??)

    At my last count he knew something like 75 signs  -- that's not counting all the initialized versions. 

    • Bronze

     Callie I was a few steps ahead of ya yesterday. I called Cornell and anyone can walk on in there now. They are charging between $1700 and $2100 an ear. I'm also waiting right now for call back from what is supposed to be a stellar Veterinary Hospital in Westchester. I have a friend from high school who's a surgical vet tech there...we're actually facebook friends and the light bulb went off in my head finally to go to her for some help. After telling them Kismet's recent problems the first thing they want to zero in on is this weight loss. They don't want to even think about putting her under for an operation if somethings going on in her tummy. Looks like she's going to have to have an ultrasound done....which is something my current vet said he should probably do...and hasn't done. So I'm sitting here typing and staring at the phone waiting for my call back.

    I LOVE LOVE LOVE that you were able to teach Muffin signs! That's fantastic. I was very lucky in that Kiz and I have always had our own way of communicating with each other. When I say Kismet and I are inseparable I really mean it. Right before I was lucky enough to have her enter my life I was nailed with a lovely little condition known as Panic Disorder. Yes there are panic attacks, and they are brutal. I seem to always have to take things to the nth degree though so instead of the occasional attack I'm cursed with multiple attacks all day long sometimes. They say sometimes dogs are "God Given"...well if that's true Kismet falls into that category. If it hadn't been for this dog I don't even think I'd be here right now. No matter what off signals may shoot out of my brain, NOTHING, can stop me from taking care of this animal. I probably would have been a house bound agoraphobic if not for her....but Kismet needs to go outside therefore Amanda IS going outside. When I know I'm not breathing correctly I just cuddle up with Kiz and follow her breathing....she's better than any meds they've ever put me on! I was actually blown away one day watching The Dog Whisperer. There was a lady having him help her get her dog ready to pass the canine assistance test because she had panic disorder and felt best being able to have her dog with her at all times! Unfortunately Kismet is a bit too old for that now but she's adorable so nobody cares that she comes everywhere with me, actually I think people just want to see Kiz more than me lol!

    I do use various hand gestures with her but I can actually communicate with her just with my eyes. She pretty much will follow whatever it is I'm looking at. I can look at her leash and the door and she's up and ready to go. They certainly are amazing little creatures.

    Ok I'm gonna stop rambling on here and go back to pacing while waiting for my phone call.

    Callie I'd love to chat with you after I hear what the new vet has to say. It would be fantastic to have you as a sounding board during this. I have this TRUST NO ONE mentality happening now with all vets.

    • Gold Top Dog

    You're in good hands with our DR. Callie helping you out!!!  I have nothing really to add but hope all goes well with Kismit.

    Prayers and Best Wishes.

     

    • Bronze

     I am definitely in good hands with Dr. Callie. What an amazing person! Thank you so much for the prayers and wishes. We are headed to a specialist on Monday...fingers, toes, arms, legs, all crossed, kinda sitting here like a pretzel.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm hoping I'm right -- that the advanced infection in the ears is the root of it all but the ultrasound should help rule out anything really nasty.

     If Cornell is doing it for that amount that is AWESOME - because I paid MORE than that 8 years ago when Mufferino had his!!

    • Gold Top Dog

    Amanda&Kiz
    She's loving the fish/sweet potato but are there other alternatives? I just worry about mercury with all the fish.

     

    I think that any novel protein and carbohydrate might do. E.g. ostrich, emu ... anything new that hasn't been fed before.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Amanda&Kiz
    She's loving the fish/sweet potato but are there other alternatives? I just worry about mercury with all the fish.

     

     Most whitefish should be safe. This link lists health concerns with different species of fish;

    http://www.edf.org/page.cfm?tagID=17694

      If you scroll down to the bottom of the page there's a list of fish that are safe to eat ( four or more meals a month).  It's usually larger species like tuna that have higher mercury levels and pcb's. If you're home cooking and not feeding her a kibble you need to add some calcium.  250 mg for every three and a half ounces of meat she's getting should do ( that's weight after cooking).  NOW brand calcium carbonate can be found in any health food store. It would also be a good idea to add a b vitamin supplement, one that includes all b vitamins. One fourth of a 50 mg tablet would be enough. That's still not a balanced diet but it will do short term and help her immune system. I'm so sorry about her ears; poor sweetie. Thank goodness for Callie's advice. Sending many healing thoughts.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Amanda&Kiz
    called Cornell and anyone can walk on in there now.

    I am so sorry your pup is having so much pain! I second the vote for Cornell. I've included the info for Tufts Vet School (just west of Boston) for you, because it might be a bit closer. If you can get up to Cornell for a thorough eval, that would be great. Then, they'll be able to go over all the treatment options. (I'd pick Cornell--only because I'm more familiar with that vet school.)

    Massachusetts

    Tufts University

    Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine

    Hospital:  Foster Hospital for Small Animals

    200 Westboro Rd.

    Grafton, MA  01536

    Phone: (508) 839-5302

    http://www.tufts.edu/vet/sah/