crystals in urine

Dyan, just checking but was that sample refridgerated before they tested it?  The refridgeration can cause a false negative on the crystals-it's happened to Willow.

willowchow

Dyan, just checking but was that sample refridgerated before they tested it?  The refridgeration can cause a false negative on the crystals-it's happened to Willow.

Sorry to say no Lori.........fresh as could be, about one hour old....about as long as it took me to get it there and tested.  

I **always** put it on ice even to go five minutes because that CAN skew the results.  So if I can't get them to "donate" at the vet I *always* put it on a bunch of ice

I didn't realize you were deliberately keeping Gibby's food at so few ingredients and the same ingredients.  You have to add different veg to achieve a balance Dyan -- you can't just leave him on the same thing day in and day out.  I always add tomato to my dogfood because at least 2 of my 3 tend to high ph. 

We've listend SO long to dogfood companies preach that dogs can't tolerate "differences" in food -- and that's such crap.  I typically have not less than 5 or 6 veg in any given week and I vary that as much as humanly possible.

Unless you want to do a consult with Sabine Contreras or Monica Segal and have them give you a very specific, but balanced by microns type of diet, otherwise you have to vary the diet to achieve balance. 

Why are you back on kibble -- are you thinking that the last month caused high crystals?  It didn't.  Crystals take a while to form and a long time to turn into stones -- and no, you don't necessarily see infection.  But the crystals you see now have been months in forming.

I'm a bit amazed that Gibby drank cranberry *juice*.  I always use the pills -- and that would be fine to add to his diet on an ongoing basis.  But that's NOT going to do a thing for crystals -- you realize that???  Cranberry is for *infection* (it's a glucose and it bonds to the infection cells so they don't stick to the urinary tract lining)

With high ph, typically it takes something extremely acidic -- like tomato and some other veg -- to reduce the urine PH.  Vit C would likely make him more comfortable (actual ascorbic acid -- not rose hips, etc.)

Bacteria grow well in highly alkalyne urine so the vet is saying that altho he doesn't have an infection now, it's fertile ground for one to grow in.

You won't accomplish a thing by high doses of cranberry now -- rather -- give him 2 caps twice a day EVERY DAY ... and that will help keep infection from forming.

In order for diet to dissolve crystals tho - you really need to do a consult with one of the dog dieticians.

calliecritturs

I didn't realize you were deliberately keeping Gibby's food at so few ingredients and the same ingredients.  You have to add different veg to achieve a balance Dyan -- you can't just leave him on the same thing day in and day out.  I always add tomato to my dogfood because at least 2 of my 3 tend to high ph. 

Are you kidding me Callie, where did you get that I was deliberately keeping Gibbys food at the same ingredients?  Yes.... the chicken or turkey has been the same meat for now, except he has gotten a lot of ground beef over the past....for sure.       But I sure haven't been limiting anything in Gibbys diet.  Here is the veggies I have been adding every time.... some are not veggies of course...but other than chicken or turkey...here is the variety of things he has been getting: white potatoes, sweet potatoes, white rice, brown rice, squash, collard green, mustard greens, ( booth of those frozen and chopped ) brocolli, cauliflower, carrots, beets, beans, peas.  Seems like that is a big variety to me...especially when your cooking them...lol!   No I have never put tomato in....I just read so much against a lot of times....and not that I wouldn't...but for now with his tummy I don't need to do anything questionable.   I'm sure you will agree.    In addition to the above..he is getting an egg each day, cottage cheese and yogurt.  

He doesn't drink water much...not sure why, he never did much but the past couple of weeks I haven't seen him drink any at all.   Its always there fresh...and I often try to talk him into it.  I also give him ice cubes a lot just to get more water in him but most often he doesn't eat them.  I do put at least 1/2 cup of water on his food..he eats 3 times a day.   He liked the cranberry juice...and yes...I was hoping it would help the crystals that that is why I gave it to him instead of the pills.   I have the pills,,,but since he doesn't drink....I decided the juice might be better to give him and didn't know if too much could cause a tummy upset...LORD KNOWS WE DON'T NEED THAT!!!!    Last night I gave him another 1/2 c ( about, maybe more ) and watered it down with a little water besides.

What causes crystals?  Does the high PH cause them?   Callie by what you said it sounds like I can expect to take him back to get it checked again and nothing will change.....or am I not reading you right?  When I looked it up in search after going to the vet..... several places ( nothing that was especially reliable information ) said "drinking lots of water is key and cranberry.  BUT also most of the time there was UTI I think too... I think it was a few dog forums that led to those discussions.

calliecritturs

Why are you back on kibble -- are you thinking that the last month caused high crystals?  It didn't.  Crystals take a while to form and a long time to turn into stones -- and no, you don't necessarily see infection.  But the crystals you see now have been months in forming.

Maybe.  

Honestly..... but I do believe what you are saying about taking a long time.  Its just that I am so unsure of myself and all of this. Yes, I can consult with someone...but at this point I am not sure that I can go thru this worry and anxiety anymore.       I was home cooking bland for him because of his stomach issues....WHILE I was standing in my kitchen spending the whole afternoon ( Tuesday ) of cooking, chopping, preparing the veggies ( I had already spent a few hours the night before doing the chicken ) he came into the kitchen doing his swallowing/gulping thing...looking to eat a plant.... and looking to me for help-------again.  Obviously while I am feeding him his food....it not helping anything. And the whole time I am unsure that I am giving him what he needs....... he is skinny...I can't even fatten him up, hard as I try.  Super chem shows nothing...that is good.  Do I want to investigate further...put him thru a battery of tests and all?   Not really.   He has done this since I got him a little...... lately little had turned into more.  Why..I have no idea. But I do know.....home cooking isn't helping....since he is having more problems....in the back of my head, maybe a balanced CRUMMY diet is better than an unbalanced GOOD diet.    At least for now.

More tests?  Probably not. 

Honestly, my first suggestion as I said the other day, would be the TCVM -- so often it can pinpoint the problem and rectify digestive issues with either acupuncture, their diet stuff or herbs. 

Other than that -- a consult with either Monica Segal (Doggie Dietician) or Sabine Contreras (she used to be Mordanna on here). 

the 'balance' to diet stuff comes over time -- and yes you were heading in definitely the right direction. 

At this point -- and granted I've been at this for years - I don't use any grains at all.  It's easier because it's bulk, but I decided it simply feeds cancer if there is any and really doesn't help and rice tends to increase inflammation rather than help it.

I still don't use as much meat as a lot advocate -- mine (even as young as they are) get about 30% meat/fish and the rest veggie.  I work full time and I do all my dog food on Sunday afternoon (around laundry and everything else) -- but shoot -- some of it cooks most all night in the crockpot (things like kale & cabbage take a long time to break down). 

There isn't ONE thing that causes crystals -- part of it is genetic, but part is diet.

don't be afraid of tomato -- YES Tomato is a nightshade plant -- it is the **green vine** that is poison -- not the tomato itself.  But it's a valuable tool to add vit C and increase the acidity of the food (which is part of what you seriously need to do -- and you probably need to do it with canned food or kibble as well!!!). 

However -- when you continuously add water to the food you slow down digestion.  Just like if you or I consume too much water or drink at a meal -- it slows down digestion.  It's not super bad, and with some dogs it IS one of the few ways to get him to drink , but it does have a price in that it slows down digestion and can make them feel full with no gain for it.

If he likes cranberry juice let him have it!!  Just don't give him one with artificial sweetener. 

But the cranberry -- altho it is kinda minorly acid -- might change the ph a *little* it's not the answer to the high ph.  And it's benefit is avoiding infection.  You can't even *treat* a UTI with cranberry -- you can lessen it, yes -- but it doesn't completely eradicate the infection.  It just makes it so the infection cells can't stick to the urinary tract walls.

 Another good addition to increase acidity is apples/applesauce (again the kind without sugar but no artifiical sweetners) -- I often add the big jar of applesauce to my food for the week.  BUT it can 'work' on the other food and cause a chemical reaction -- so it's actually best to just plop 1/4 c of apple sauce on top of his food.  I also give mine apple bits for treats. 

And if it's any consolation -- when I cook food, occasionally I will start with uncooked kale or greens, but with life usually as it is, I typically use turnips, collards, etc. from the freezer case.  chopped and frozen.  Remember spinach and all the other greens as well. 

Sorry, I thot by how you worded that you were **trying** to keep it ultra ultra bland by limiting the veggies.  Veggies can be pretty rich.

But now -- his stomach HAS been better, right?  So don't throw home-cooking out -- just learn what veggies to include in order to discourage the crystals. 

calliecritturs

Sabine Contreras (she used to be Mordanna on here). 

Yes, she used to be Lillian here if you remember. Last I looked I have a paragraph on her website promoting her.

calliecritturs

I still don't use as much meat as a lot advocate -- mine (even as young as they are) get about 30% meat/fish and the rest veggie.  I work full time and I do all my dog food on Sunday afternoon (around laundry and everything else) -- but shoot -- some of it cooks most all night in the crockpot (things like kale & cabbage take a long time to break down). 

When you have a 95 lb dog whos father weighs 185 and mother 135....you need to feed a lot of veggies for weight if your only feeding 30% meat.  I was feeding 50/50 but he is getting skinnier and skinnier...... I now measure out 1 cup chopped up meat.... 1 cup of rice, oatmeal or white potatoes....and 3/4 cup veggies..... and he is still getting skinnier because I don't put fat in anything.   I'm afraid of fat with his tummy issues.    Like my son said " Mom if I ate as many veggies as you give Gibby...I wouldn't be watching my weight.....he needs fat..he needs something substantial...not veggies!  I know he needs tons of veggies for nutrients.... but he needs to be not hungry.

calliecritturs

when I cook food, occasionally I will start with uncooked kale or greens, but with life usually as it is, I typically use turnips, collards, etc. from the freezer case.  chopped and frozen.

That is what I do with my greens from the freezer...they are not cooked either.

calliecritturs

But now -- his stomach HAS been better, right?  So don't throw home-cooking out -- just learn what veggies to include in order to discourage the crystals. 

I wish that were true but no.   He was doing very well for about 6 weeks...... until a week ago Monday......  I know it started with the vitamins..of course I don't know that it is the vitamins for sure or not.  He started all over with these stomach issues and its every day or every two days now.....and now he has the crystals besides...so I do have to give up on the home cooking.    Between the tummy issues, crystals and his skinny body....I can't feel that I am doing him any good right now.   I will try again.....I seriously don't like kibble.   I will always give him veggies and some meat that is good for him...no matter what I feed him  though...that I can tell you.

calliecritturs

Sorry, I thot by how you worded that you were **trying** to keep it ultra ultra bland by limiting the veggies.  Veggies can be pretty rich.

Sorry, my fault....I guess I meant by cooking the meat and trying to keep fat out.   AND not even adding any fish yet or even beef now.  Just trying to get a feel for how he will be using the veggies and chicken or turkey.

Applesause is probably a good idea....I never thought of it. In fact the lady from where I buy my supplements from told me to get him some apple cidar vinegar to mix in his food. I'm on my way to the store now.    And I have to say..... the only fruit I normally eat is grapes which he can't have and watermelon in the summer...but my DH eats oranges and apples and shares them with Gibby when he does.  Gibby DOES get good things.

dyan

But I do know.....home cooking isn't helping....since he is having more problems....in the back of my head, maybe a balanced CRUMMY diet is better than an unbalanced GOOD diet.    At least for now.

  I agree, and knowing he is getting all the nutrients he needs will give you less to worry about while you deal with the crystals. According to Monica Segal, protein from vegetables can raise urine pH while meat protein can lower it; the protein from meat has more sulfur-amino acids. One of the diets in "Optimal Nutrition" for dogs with struvite crystals is 40% protein, 18% carbs, and 42% fat.  According to her, the cranberry juice you're giving Gibby won't acidify the urine, but will help prevent bacteria from adhering to the walls of his bladder. If you're not sure the crystals are struvite, be careful with the cranberries because they are high in oxalate. If you're sure the crystals don't have an oxalate core, cranberries are fine to add. I'll be sending good thoughts for Gibby; (((((hugs)))))

 Edited to add; when Jessie was on the cooked diet she drank much less water too, because she was getting what she needed from the food. Chances are Gibby will drink enough water on the dry food.

 I would do a consult, or do kibble. I've done both in the past, and been incredibly happy, with both. I was AMAZED at what my homemade diet was lacking, when I did the consult. It sounds to me like Gibby isn't getting nearly enough fat. What cut of chicken and turkey is he eating? Even doing dark meat, *just* poultry and veggies probably isn't enough. I don't know, though. Em couldn't eat poultry. The little girls do, but they eat kibble with toppers, not a homemade diet.

Thanks Janice.....  The vet said his ph is very high and he has struvite crystals.   I think I read someplace that sweet potatoes are bad for high PH...and guess what my main ingredient is in most of the meals I make...besides the meat.   Yep... a lot of sweet potatoes.  I give up.   I have to.  But now I was made aware that I should check to see what dog food PH is.....so I will do that too.   

Today was very sunny and it comes in my front door....... Gibby ( and all the danes ) lay in front of it until they are panting...he actually got up and drank water on his own...first time in a long long time that I remember.     I was happy he was drinking the C. Juice because that meant he was drinking anything.......   but I also was told to put apple cider vinegar in his food..... I am.

Dyan, I know you've heard this probably wayyy to many times but I'm just wondering if you've actually explored the Chinese medicine route or are you just not interested or are there none around you?

Poor Gibby. I really hope you get this figured out soon.

Positive vibes for Gibby.

Johnny&Tessy

Dyan, I know you've heard this probably wayyy to many times but I'm just wondering if you've actually explored the Chinese medicine route or are you just not interested or are there none around you?

Poor Gibby. I really hope you get this figured out soon.

Positive vibes for Gibby.

Have you ever used it?

Callie mentioned it last week and sent me some information as to where there is such a person in my area.  However....I just took him to get blood work to see where we are can what we can or can not rule out....and now the crystal in urine thing comes up.   Not that I would't condsider the Chinese medicine route.....but I'm not confident enough to go into something possible entirely different at this point...would you?  

 Absolutely! You're NOT going with something entirely different. You're ADDING something new. You aren't leaving the traditional veterinary community, at all. You're adding herbs and acupuncture, and some nutritional counseling. ADDING, not taking anything away.

It is definitely, definitely worth trying. I am very fortunate. I live close enough that I got to drive to the Chi Institute, and have my dog seen (which is truly a unique and fascinating experience), but then I had to find someone closer if I wanted the dog seen on any sort of regular basis. It is not an exclusion of your regular vet, but it is adding in something completely new and different. In Jewel's case, things that the regular vet hadn't even really addressed were instantaneously better. Her chronic bad breath (despite dental work and regular brushing), picky eating, flaky skin cleared up immediately (next bath, flakies just washed away, and haven't come back). They hit an acupuncture point to clear bile and help out her liver and stomach. She took a nap, hopped into the car, and wanted a snack. She ate food she'd never eaten before (apples, they'd been offered, but she wouldn't take anything like that), happily, and settled in for the ride. 

jennie_c_d

 I would do a consult, or do kibble. I've done both in the past, and been incredibly happy, with both. I was AMAZED at what my homemade diet was lacking, when I did the consult. It sounds to me like Gibby isn't getting nearly enough fat. What cut of chicken and turkey is he eating? Even doing dark meat, *just* poultry and veggies probably isn't enough. I don't know, though. Em couldn't eat poultry. The little girls do, but they eat kibble with toppers, not a homemade diet.

Jennie I missed this yesterday... so thanks.   Gibby is eating mostly thighs, legs and breasts....and the turkey was a breast that I bought for him.  Gosh I was trying to make sure he didn't have much fat for his tummy problems and yet there is not enough fat in his diet to keep his weight.  My friend who doesn't have a dog, never had one and doesn't want one said something that almost made sense, "you have fed him everything else ( of course I never fed raw ) did you ever try just plain dog food??"   NOPE!  HHHmmm!

Thanks for the info about taking your pups to the Chi Institute.  Its good to know. I did look the ones that Callie sent me up that day..just to see where there are...and then sent them to my friend with the pancreatitis dog......... and kind of put it aside when Gibby started his thing again.