Please help me...

Megan, I can't find your earlier threads discussing the vet visits and what they said.  Without knowing and fully reading what those vets had to say, it's hard to give much perspective.  Was this assumed to be a neurological thing, as opposed to the simple intestinal bug? 

No. It's a long history but long story short he has EPI, perianal fistulas, and IBS. Treatments with cyclosporine, ketoconazole, tacrolimus, keflex, flagyl, prednisone, metacam, pancreazyme...i feel like there are more but i can't think now.

I knew an older woman who had drastically lost weight, had explosive diarrhea (sorry for the visual), and was having trouble even forcing herself to eat.  She had been to several doctors.

Due to a lack of geriatric experience, her doctors had not checked the basic hormones that control hunger and digestion.  Most doctors (vets, too?) never see the symptoms that a lack of one of these hormones can cause since it is an uncommon (and usually a geriatric) condition. 

When this woman's hormones were finally checked, one of them was basically at zero.  Hormone replacement therapy resolved the problem and she started gaining back some weight.  She did resolve not to gain it all back! 

Sorry, I can't remember what hormone it was. 

I'm so sorry to hear of Kaiser's condition.  I'm probably not the right one to offer advise cause I know very little on these conditions.  When you say he poops alot does he do it all the time or only a certain amount of time after eating.  I say this because one of my dogs had some of the same symptoms but she would only poop so many hrs after eating.  She couldn't control herself at anytime and would poop everywhere.  We were to several doctors and they each gave her different meds to try and nothing seemed to work.  It was like her but was hurting and she always ran from it....at the same time pooping.

Well, after months and months of this (and some weight loss) I was talking to someone at a seniors home where I visit and they told me it was the food.  Well I thought ot myself what exactly would they know a doctor wouldn't.  After a few weeks I finally decided ot change the food she ate.  After switching 4 different times the symptoms finally started to go away.  I couldn't believe it.  I don't know if it was the change in food or if it was just coincidence it went away.  To this day the symptoms haven't came back.

I know this is probably totally unrelated to your Kaiser but maybe there's options out there that you haven't tried or thought of.

I really hope you get to the bottom of this. I know exactly how it feels to have to clean poop up all day.

Sending Kaiser soem healing vibes and hugs.

Johnny & Tessy

Did his breeder have any feedback - issues with others in his line?  Do you feel confident that the vets have identified the correct issues and treatments, and that the end result is just going to be the rest of his life like this?  I get the impression there's still some question about what is TRULY going on with him.  I know how much you value him, and if it was Gracie, I'd be bringing her to a vet school or get some strong reco's for specialists to take a look at her, her bloodwork, pull new specialized work, etc, basically because I'd want to know what is truly wrong before making a decisions like that. 

When my sister's dog Patrick was about 5, he went through a dramatic weight loss (85lbs down to 58 in less than 2 months!), couldn't keep food down, diarrhea, etc,(she's out of town right now, so I can't get the specifics, but this is what I recall).  It was horrifying to her and two vets recommended that he be put down because, although they tried drugs and treatments, they weren't sure what was the true cause and he appeared to be whithering away in discomfort, etc.

She opted to keep him alive and just keep trying to get him to eat and make sure he was comfortable - his attitude seemed ok, just very sad.  He eventually resolved/overcame whatever it was - nobody has any answers about it.  Was it a bug, a poisoning, a neuological problem, or something else, nobody knows.  He's now 9 years old and all of his bloodwork over the last few years have been stellar.  (He just had surgery 2 months ago, and the vets are very impressed by his health and vitality.)  Absolutely no clue what it was, and he might have been gone had she followed the advice of the vet.

I guess my point is, unless I know what is going on and know there's no improvement for my dog's life, I can't make a decision like you're dealing with.  If you feel confident that the vets are correct, have treated it the best ways, and any other supplemental help isn't working to alleviate his weight loss and discomfort, then that's a different story.  I think you know that point, which is why I really suspect you don't feel confident with the doctors' diagnosis and treatments and are posting this looking for help in working through this terrible situation.

HUGE HUGs... It sucks when you have to even contemplate such a decision, let alone move forward with an action plan.  What would be the guide-posts you would look for if you were advising a friend in a similar situation?  What sort of advice would you give them?

RidgebackGermansShep

 I don't know what to do. Kaiser keeps getting worse and worse. All his treatments are not working, i have been to 3 different vets. He is constantly pooping...on the floor, in his diaper, on my wall, all over himself. I literally gag every time i clean him up. He seems miserable most of the time, but if i go in the backyard he will try his best to fetch for a few minutes, until he has to poop again. He eats really well.

I'm at the same darned place with Kee -- she's lost SO much weight.  18 months ago she was at 12-13 pounds.  11.5 a year ago and I wa HAPPY there.  (she'd been pretty chubby when we got her 4 Holiday years ago).  In July she was 5.9 pounds!!!  (this has just happened slow and I kept increasing her food, trying to help her absorb it etc.)

I know right now she's probably about 4.5 pounds.  No joke.  I keep saying I think she's just going to disappear into the wind. 

She had bouts of really *horrrible* diarreha.  And nothing we did worked (and she's not continent either -- neither way) but the diarreha was just obscene to keep clean -- I understand totally. 

FINALLY, Dr. DiNatale said to me that *she* thot Kee had a UTI.  Now ... how to do you get a urine sample from a dog who is incontinent?  *rolling eyes* -- they can't even get one in an aspirate because shes' SOOOOOOOOOOOO thin.  So Dr. D simply put her on sulpha of all things (which is never used any more b/c of auto-immune).  But it's gentle and mild and wow -- the diarreha STOPPED.  Apparently in the elderly (and this happens with humans) when they get a low grade infection like that (digestive, renal, etc.) it simply can make them SO miserable that it causes diarreha and none of the classic "UTI" symptoms apply. (and when they are incontinent and may lay in their urine for a while until you find it -- that keeps the UTIs rolling).

Now this isn't his case because he's not pee incontinent.  BUT he's been on all these drugs that have likely wrecked havoc with the immune system and the liver.  So .... given that his body age is now far older than his physical age (because of the ravages of the disease) I'd wonder if there isn't some low grade infection somewhere?

Now metranydazole is an antibiotics **but** it CAN stop working (or they can become resistant). 

Now to get back to my comparison to Kee -- we gave up and we're just KEEPING her on sulfa -- permanently.  We're not talking about years here -- because she just doesn't have long.  BUT it literally has her way way more comfortable and it has gotten the diarreha WAY under control.

 The other thing she takes is a Chinese herbal called Huo Xiang (I get it at Morningstarhealth.com but I've got an extra one that I could send you asap if you want to try it).

Th Huo Xiang (say "ho shang";) was NOT cutting it alone when we tried it a few months ago *because* there was this apparent UTI that kept going undetected..  But it's a really gentle formula to help regulate the digestive system (they give it even to infants with mega diarrhea) and again Kee can be on it forever.

Soooo back to square one.  Where do you put the period at the end of the sentence when the dog still totally enjoys eating, enjoys being social but is mentally weirded out by the illness and yet still seems to have some good quality of life?

I wish the heck *I* Knew.  BUT ... Kee's not in pain, I'm not enjoying three dog baths a day but I can deal with it.  Now with the run amok diarrhea I was fighting David (yep, we've actually disagreed on this one for a long while) cos I thot we should "finish" it.  But now that we've got the diarrhea and UTI under control ... and she's not moaning and generally making me think she's miserable, but is pretty content -- I'm ok with it for now.

She's a lot smaller than your dog.  But she's also not ambulatory much (her back legs are so scissored she can't walk 2" in a straight line but she DOES toddle thru the house). 

IF you could find something to help stop the diarrhea it might help you with the decision (have you tried just plain old Pepto tablets?  Or immodium??)

The other thing I've used on ME (and I'm not terminal but I can have collitis so bad I *think* I am) -- that I've also used on Kee is Digestive Advantage.  Again, it would *not* be a cure-all but it could seriously help the diarrhea - especially if you use it to augment something else.

But I don't know if I've given you food for thot or not -- but given that the diarrhea isnt' really *part* of the fistulas per se (explosive diarrhea like that is small intestine, not colon) but I tried. 

It is SO difficult when they don't appear to be in constant pain -- but rather it becomes sheerly a quality of life thing, and you have pros and cons on both side.

 Not sure if you've mentioned this before or not, but are any of his vets holistic?  I know a ton of tough cases that tried alternative medicine as a last ditch and it totally turned the animal around.  Of course not all situations will respond that well, but it's certainly a great area to look into if you haven't already.

Megan, it's so hard to deal with this kind of problem.  Poor Kaiser and poor you for having to deal with this for so long.  I have no advice, only my support and good vibes.  I know you want the best for your boy and that you will know when he's not living a life he can enjoy.

 Thanks guys.

Paige- Kaiser's breeder, ha!! Kaiser was BYB and i'm sure his breeder could care less even if i did know how to contact her. The IBS is presumptive, as far as i know there's not a specific test or anything, but it's often associated with PF. We've done all the usual PF treatments, which have helped his anus some...but it's his bowels that are so bad. His poop is not diarrhea at all times...often it is formed. We have talked tail amputation for healing of the fistulas (2 right now that are about the circumference of a pencil). i am a little more hesitant about surgery and the risks, especially because it probably wont do anything for his bowels.

 The only thing we haven't tried yet is Imuran. We go back in a few weeks and we're going to talk more in depth about that.

The skinny thing doesn't worry me as much,because bloodwork has looked good. He has a pretty good appetite, the EPI just doesn't allow him to gain any weight.

I hvae no idea about him- this morning he was romping out in the snow with the other dogs, and now he's pouting in the chair.

Megan - I have no great advice but wanted you to know that I admire you for going to such great lengths to try to help Kaiser. I also know how frustrating, depressing and expensive it can be. I hope that things turn around for you both soon and he starts to feel better.

 Megan I am so sorry you and Kaiser are going through this - I wish I had something to say that would help.  Other than adding pure fiber to his diet I know of nothing that would keep it firm. Is there something that he could take to slow down the movement through his bowels? That might help with absorption and weight gain.

It is so very sad to think how active and happy he was, how young he is, and how suddenly this occurred.

Sending our very best vibes to both of you

Megan - I have no advice, but I wanted to let you know that we are sending good thoughts to you and Kaiser. 

I do know that when my mom was having digestive problems she starting drinking that Danactive and it really really helped.  Like I said, I know nothing on this subject, but maybe one of those probiotic drinks/yogurts will help?

Thinking about you!!

 Thanks so much for all the support guys.

Karen- he is supposed to be on pancreazyme for his absorption issues, but isn't currently on it. I have been consulting with a vet in a different state, and she's very helpful with giving me suggestions to try with him.

Megan I have been thinking about you since you posted.

I hope you can find a solution that sits easy on both of you. I am sorry you have to go through this. I am sorry he has to go through this.