Bones and teeth

It's not the dental Dyan -- it's the vet *doing* the dental.  My vet never EVER sedates one of my dogs -- he *just* uses the mask and gives them enough gas to get them under -- that's ALL.  No tube.  no sedation.  He knows my dogs and they trust him enough to mask them down gently. 

If you take *all* the marrow out he has no incentive To chew them.  I don't use long long marrow bones -- just ones that are maybe 2" long.  Or you can get big joints -- but it would need to have *some* meat on them.

You can parboil them (literally plunge them in boiling water for a few seconds just to kill any nasty bacteria -- like maybe 10 - 20 seconds max.  It doesn't cook the bone (particularly if they're frozen when you do that). 

Get Gibby a big joint bone or something.  They're really cheap.  Or else give him turkey necks (butcher item -- they can order them)

But don't set yourself against a dental -- just find out what it is ABOUT them that can go wrong

And work on training him to let you clean his teeth -- he shouldn't NEED to be restrained -- he should think it's kinda fun (because he gets a bone after??)

Doggie toothpaste should be yummy -- and I honestly usually use and OLD toothbrush of mine at first -- smells like ME that that yummy mint stuff Mommy uses.  Or just use a finger-brush.

Don't try to accomplish much the first time -- just get him used to the brush.

Thanks Callie....he does have a brush and has chicken flavored toothpaste.....however...I am sure he would try to eat the whole thing. I wish I had the finger brush that I used for Bubby...although I didn't see any difference in her anyway. 

Gibby does gnaw on the bone for quite a while....probably over an hour..maybe an hour and a half.    I give him once a week..sometimes 2 a week...and that is with taking the marrow out.  They are about 3 to 4 inches long...don't forget this is a very large dog...with a very large mouth.  I don't want him trying to swallow the darn thing.

About the dental....not really giving an opinion one way or another...only when I joined that MegaE board a couple people shared that with me right away.  That said......I worked for my vet for almost 4 years and Bubby is the only dog I know that had MegaE...THANK GOD!  However... I've watched the techs trying to get that tube in occasionally..................................................

 Have you attempted any sort of clicker training and desensitization process so he becomes more comfortable with restraint and with getting nails trimmed and he teeth brushed? You can do this pretty simply using his kibble mixed with some really high value treats (hot dogs, cheese, chopped chicken breast etc.). Start touching him in a place he is totally comfortable getting touched. When you touch, click-treat. Slowly work your way to the problem areas, and then slowly up the length of time you are touching him. When he's comfortable getting touched on his feet and in his mouth for a few seconds at a time, you can slowly up the amount of pressure you apply. Once he is super happy at getting his teeth and gums touched, slowly introduce the brush. Don't try to brush his teeth at first, just touch his mouth with the brush and click-treat. And again, slowly up the pressure and length of time exposed. Everytime he's getting touched, remember to click-treat! And every few times he'll get something really tasty. I did this with my dog for every evening meal for maybe 2 weeks, and now he lays still for his nails getting dremeled.

If at anytime he starts to wiggle, get uncomfortable, or protest, you've gone too far too quick. So take a step back and try again with something you know he's OK with.

I think that if you really worked at it, it wouldn't take long for you to be able to brush his teeth.

I'd also offer him a different variety of bones. Long marrow bones are great, but my dogs rarely chew them. They suck the middle out, pull all the meat and muscle left on the bone off, and may chew a tiny bit, but there really isn't a grinding action. I'd try the turkey necks or chicken backs, and maybe a few knuckle bones (but only if your dog isn't such a strong and tenacious chewer that he'll hurt him teeth). You could also try long ribs, or deer antlers. Just take the precaution that they're big enough he cannot swallow them whole, and supervise him so that he's thoroughly chewing.

dyan

as soon as you have to hold him still he gets paranoid..and screams....I mean the terror in his eyes know you are not getting him to be still for any length of time.    

  He's learned this is his "get-out-of-jail" card for restraint.  Are you doing it with him on the ground, or standing up?  Sometimes that can make a difference in how threatening the restraint can be.  One trick I learned at the shelter was getting the dog comfortably on the ground (nice soft surface), and once he was rolled to one side, to pull the bottom leg (of the side he was laying on) out straight - because that's the leg he'd need to pull back under himself to get up.  Anyway, having a kind and skilled vet tech show you a safe and easy restraint can go a long way toward easing his anxiety, and once you KNOW you're not hurting him, you can persist even when he starts screaming.

PS, just yesterday I saw that dog.com sells a tooth scaler.  Perhaps you can get your vet to show you how to use it at home.  I don't blame you for wanting to avoid the dental, but knowing this is an issue at a year and a half, I'd hate to see what his mouth could look like in 3 years if you can't find a suitable alternative.

miranadobe

  He's learned this is his "get-out-of-jail" card for restraint.

Well sure, but if there is genuine terror in his eyes and he's screaming, that means, well, he's terrified. So terrified he is screaming. Why make him feel terrified, have to physically restrain him, etc., when she doesn't have to and could desensitize him to getting manhandled and touched? We may logically know that holding him down is not physically hurting him, and he has no reason to be afraid, but the dog doesn't know that. He is afraid. The end. The owner should be working on him becoming unafraid, instead of learning techniques that will merely produced learned helplessness.

Vet techs and groomers use restraint like that and other physical methods generally because they have to work quickly and they obviously do not have the time to desensitize a dog to getting touched with food treats. But it should be the owner's responsibility to be working with their dog to be comfortable getting handled in the way a groomer or vet tech would handle them.

 Will he lick chicken flavored toothpaste off of a toothbrush? If you get the enzymatic one by Petrodex or CET, and just let him lick it off the toothbrush, that will be a start. You can very, very slowly work up to lifting a lip while he licks, touching a tooth with your finger, etc etc and ease him into it. He doesn't have to be restrained, at all.

Callie, how can you do a dental without tubing them? Emma got masked down, last time, and it was *work*. Took two of us to keep her on the table. She was fine with the mask, but when she started going down, she faught it. Jewel was given a shot, then tubed when she was under. Much easier.

Raw meaty bones are the best way to go. The thing is, it won't happen overnight, but if you give one regularly they will become cleaner. At a year and a half your young dog shouldn't have tartar build up already!

I started raw with my guys in April. My dogs are three, five and a half, and six. The two older ones both had a lot of tarter on their back teeth, and my youngest had some on her canines and very back molars. I was looking at their teeth the other day, and by gosh they are so sparkly white!! There is only a tiny bit of tartar left in some of the crevices, but it's almost all totally gone. I'm simply amazed....but the key is it takes time for the teeth to return to a healthy state and get rid of the yucky mouth bacteria. I can't wait to see them in another couple of months and they should be even that much better. There will be no dentals for my guys - ever - at this rate!

On this issue, I agree that restraining shouldn't be necessary to begin with. 

tenna

The owner should be working on him becoming unafraid,

Yes, and she should know how to do it safely once he is desensitized to it, don't you think?  Elsewise, she could be desensitizing him into an awkward position that could be avoided with proper instruction.  She has a very big, young Great Dane.  Not her first by any stretch, but every dog is a new experience, clearly.  (A person may have owned many dogs before, but not THIS dog, right?)  Perhaps an alternative technique would lessen his potential experience of terror.  Just throwing it out there.  Alternative perspectives and all.

I, too, would wonder how one could do a full dental with just a mask. I get the masking down vs chemical/IV sedation part..it takes a bit longer, but no big deal aside from some dogs being a little flaily. But a full dental is a somewhat drawn out process..the mouth has to be open so that one can scale each tooth, use suction, the doctor can check each tooth and gum area for pockets, etc. If the mouth is open, even if a mask is on the nose, the dog is going to wake up. Dogs that are gassed down wake up very quickly..which is great, but not if you're in the middle of a dental. I can't imagine how stressful it would be for a dog to constantly wake up, be gassed again, wake up, etc..and you'd probably double the time of the dental not to mention how long they'd be under gas.

Ginger's been gassed down for procedures, but was then tubed for the rest. Even having megaesophagus, she's never had an issue recovering. 

 I'll also say that any tech having a problem getting a tube in wasn't trained on how to properly size a tube. I tube dogs several times each week and I can say that, even if you grabbed a wrong tube size, you can tell when you look in the throat if it will fit or not, before you go poking around

 That is assuming it is a full dental. We do have several dogs that the vet just hand scales, rather than sedating them and using the dental machine.  They don't get the under the gum area cleaned, but the rest of the surface is done. They have it done two or three times each year, usually. If you can get him desensitized to mouth things, that might be an option for you as well if you do it before his teeth get too bad.

 Bone wise, Jules' teeth have really cleaned up with raw bones..they do chew marrow bones (I leave the marrow in, but my crew does ok with that kind of thing), lamb shanks are another favorite, as are ribs. I don't feed raw chicken parts as it usually grosses me out too much. (no clue why chicken is grosser than lamb, pork or beef, but alas..) a knuckle bone would be great if you can find one..I haven't been able to find them here though :(

For teaching him to have his teeth brushed, perhaps you can use a finger brush? If he's ok with petting on the muzzle, perhaps slip your finger (in brush) in and rub it along the teeth briefly, then praise and treat. Maybe this, rather than what he views as an ordeal of formal brushing, would work over time in addition to his chewing.

Kim_MacMillan

Raw meaty bones are the best way to go. The thing is, it won't happen overnight, but if you give one regularly they will become cleaner. At a year and a half your young dog shouldn't have tartar build up already!

  I agree! My dogs have never had dentals, never get their teeth brushed and still have clean, tartar free teeth. A couple of them will get some tartar build up on their upper canines from time to time that I just scratch off when I see it. Otherwise - nice, health teeth :)

 I would suggest sticking with turkey necks/backs/wings for a dog Gibby's size. Give him one a day, if you can or at least every other day. I think they work better than hard beef bones at keeping teeth clean and are much less likely to damage teeth (strong chewers can break their teeth on hard beef bones). And you can give them frozen for extra chewing. I honestly have never seen brushing a dog's teeth make much of a difference in tartar build up. I suspect you'd have to do it daily for it to really keep the teeth free of tartar and even that isn't going to get tartar off once it is on. For that you need raw meaty bones or a scaler.

Kim_MacMillan

Raw meaty bones are the best way to go. The thing is, it won't happen overnight, but if you give one regularly they will become cleaner. At a year and a half your young dog shouldn't have tartar build up already!

Ditto.

Doxies are notorious for having crappy mouthes.  Both Shooter & Schatzi were having to have full dentals, yearly, before we went raw.  It has been almost two years that they have been "raw dogs" and their teeth still look as if they have just had dentals. 

As to restraint...I know that, from previous posts, Gibby has his mom wrapped around his big paw.  I do think that his screaming in terror is a game that he plays to get his way.  ie. He screams, & the nail trim gets put off until later.  He screams, & the teeth brushing doesn't happen. 

I am a no nonsense kinda girl so if I were dealing with this issue, I would act totally nonchalant about the screaming, & continue working.   That's just me, though.  I've dealt with enough dogs to know if they are truly frightened, or if they are just putting on a show.  If they are truly scared, then I have no issue putting in the time to desensitize them.  If it's just a show, I ignore the fit & get the job done. 

jennie_c_d

Callie, how can you do a dental without tubing them? Emma got masked down, last time, and it was *work*. Took two of us to keep her on the table. She was fine with the mask, but when she started going down, she faught it

It's just the way Dr. B does it -- but then he spends a lot of time calming them I think.  I've never been in there when he does it.  But I've never had one with a sore throat after

AgileGSD

 I would suggest sticking with turkey necks/backs/wings for a dog Gibby's size

I just have a question about this.  I'm new to raw bone giving.  But, I'm totally impressed with how well they work.  But, when you give the turkey necks, etc., don't they just eat them quickly? 

The marrow bone lasted 2 hours.  I'm just curious because she needs lengthy chewing sessions to clean her teeth up.  They aren't good. 

Dyan-  I also have had some success with PetzLife Gel.  It's a gel that you can just rub on his teeth/gums with your fingers.  Willow never accepted the brush well.  But I've used the gel and I just put some on one of those doggie dental wipes and wipe her teeth and gums with it. 

calliecritturs

jennie_c_d

Callie, how can you do a dental without tubing them? Emma got masked down, last time, and it was *work*. Took two of us to keep her on the table. She was fine with the mask, but when she started going down, she faught it

It's just the way Dr. B does it -- but then he spends a lot of time calming them I think.  I've never been in there when he does it.  But I've never had one with a sore throat after

Do you guys mean that they aren't having general anesthesia for the dental??