Culling, does it mean death for innocent pups?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Good post - and round we go again, back to the "elitist" subject that started it and why PET owners should not breed!   

    • Gold Top Dog

    Chuffy

    Good post - and round we go again, back to the "elitist" subject that started it and why PET owners should not breed!   

    I agree, and some pet owners shouldn't breed their dogs either.

    • Gold Top Dog

    ROTFLMAO!

    Right!

    Angelique

    Chuffy

    Good post - and round we go again, back to the "elitist" subject that started it and why PET owners should not breed!   

    I agree, and some pet owners shouldn't breed their dogs either.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Angelique

    ...some pet owners shouldn't breed their dogs either.

    as well as the pretenders to be "reputable" responsible breeders.  So it evens itself all out.  Culling (death) for color....there is a special place in h....

    • Gold Top Dog

    AgileGSD
     Not in this county - APBTs and mixes rarely see the outside of our county pound once they go in. I have seen one of the local rescues that pulls dogs from there has one from time to time that they are calling an Amstaff or Boxer mix. Most are killed without ever going up for adoption and without the public ever seeing them. I believe only one shelter in my area, a large privately run one will adopt out APBTs. The other private orgs won't take them at all. Actually at our county pound even the dogs up for adoption are not killed because no one wants them, they are killed because that is the job of the county pound - disposing of unwanted pets not pet adoption.

    I totally understand the pain of this statement. In Mobile Al where you can on ANY given weekend buy Pit pups at the swap meet or outside of a gas station we had this tragedy happening on a regular basis. Then over a period of I think it was 17 months 5 Pit attacks where 4 children and one adult were all maimed and mauled, with ( I could be worng but I think it was) 2 deaths.  Idiots like the family who buys a pit , adolescent dog big muscled and worthy of being a "protector" was left in the back yard on a chain with a toddler while mom ran in to grab the phone or a ciggerette... the child toddled close and the dog attatcked, Mom ran out and was being mauled as she tried to protedt the child and neighbor with his deer gun shot the dog off of the pair.... OMG !!!!!!   

    For about 2 years they were simply and silently put to sleep. No adoptions considered. PERIOD. Then a dog was found wandering , emaciated beyond belief, dragging a big nasty tow chain and this weaken sad pit still wagged his tail trying to make friends with the people who stood ready to SHOOT it!!  They just could not shoot the boy, he went to a shelter and the "owner" was found and while being prosecuted the dog was safe. Thankfully it was found out the dog would be PTS as soon as the trial was over, Hey this is a PIT for Gosh sakes....   The RR community got our knickers in a twist and did some great fund and awareness fundraising... He eventually got a stay of execution and was rehomed to an animal preserve in Co that specializes in high risk kids this this boy.  The RR community made sure he went on the Under Hound Railroad   with enough funds to make sure he would not be a burden in his new home.

    It is NOT about breeds, it is about ETHICS.In our Community they are offering nearly free spay Nueter on ANY labs... hardly the "death dog" but they are so often knocked up , poorly bred and every where tha it breaks your heart !!! A lab for more than 50.00 in  our part of the world is rare and yet you will still see them in the papers etc. because breeders seem to think having a wainting list from Ch pairs is a bother  not worth dealing with....  WE will not cull for cosmetic reasons. I Could Not Do it.   If a Health issue was profound enough that we  would have to worry for the life of the dog maybe then we would have to consider culling at that point..... But in 27 years we have yet to cull a puppy.

    Bonita of Bwana

    • Gold Top Dog

    Bonita of Bwana

    WE will not cull for cosmetic reasons. I Could Not Do it.   If a Health issue was profound enough that we  would have to worry for the life of the dog maybe then we would have to consider culling at that point..... But in 27 years we have yet to cull a puppy.

    Bonita of Bwana

    You are picking and choosing what standards and ethics to follow.  Isn't that what some of the Pet Quality breeders do and then are labeled irresponsible.   "Reputable" responsible breeders can't have things both ways.  I don't understand why culling is not addressed in every breeder's ethic statement.

    • Gold Top Dog

    DPU
    You are picking and choosing what standards and ethics to follow.  Isn't that what some of the Pet Quality breeders do and then are labeled irresponsible.   "Reputable" responsible breeders can't have things both ways.  I don't understand why culling is not addressed in every breeder's ethic statement

    I think I can see what you are trying to say but no it is not the same.  For decades the RRs reputable breeders culled the ridgeless.  NOW there is a current study that has been documented by the Swiss and being followed up on here in the States , Our breed has a specific problem with Dermoid Sinus , I think I already explained what they are and how they can be life threatening. In the study they have not simply found , but are proving that the RRR (ridgeless ridgebacks) have such a substantially smaller degree of incidence with DS that they are now concluding that all of these years the healthy RRR pups who were culled could have been surgically culled at most and very possibly the outstanding examples may have been what some lines needed to reduce or eliminate the DS in the lines!   As a breed we are a LONG way off from breeding ridgeless to ridged without being part of a documented study.  By the same token less than 15 years ago many breeders were culling puppies with excessive white.  Here is the thinking on white... in the African veldt white could be a give away to a predator causing the loss of an animal.  I could buy that..... but the very last time I saw a lion in my neighborhood...... so what I am trying to say is IF I was breeding specifically for a working dog IN Africa I might think twice.  Here in the States at most excessive white should be surgically culled by spay nueter , removing the dog from a breeding program. While I would not wish to include excessive white in my program it will not in ANY way prevent a dog from being a perfectly acceptable pet or companion. They do not run , move or think based on color. Until the early 50's Brindles and multi colored were common place. When bringing the breed to the US they used the Dalmation Standard adapted to pass our breed into the AKC ranks.  So where we have seen RRs with stockings like a basenji make it to Champion and NO they should not have, in our kennel they are adored , loved and if they have white above the toes , they are NEVER bred.

    To breed a sound RR you would be better suited to decide the purpose for the dog.   Any dog unfit for possible breeding. ( and in our contracts they must be finished then Chic'ed  and Temperament tested)  should at the appropriate age be altered, again surgically removing it from the breeding gene pool.  While in the begining yes they hunted Lion and Wild Boar, here in the US they are better suited as a family pet, companion, agility ( we have many MACH in RRS) Coursing, hunting ( deer, javelina, etc) tracking, S&R, Therapy .... the dog is so incredibly versital that a GOOD and ETHICAL Breeder is going to find a way to breed for thei gaols and then use, yes USE, every dog produced.  NOT every Champion should be bred.  Scandolous I know but a firm belief.  You Pick only the VERY best.  you combine it with your best possible choice and then you go the extra yard in placing it. 

    As far as having it both ways , YES you can.  We back up every , yes EVERY puppy for life. It can always come home to us. If at 13 years old a genetic flaw appears ( hasn't but say if) We would back up that puppy 100%  We stay so involved we can be counted on for any and all information the family could ever need, we manage any and all care for dogs needing boarding or training. And currently have a 9 yr old who when a bump was spotted even though we were reasonably sure it was just an old dog fatty tumor we paid for and managed his rehab . Why? We really are invested in our breed.

    IF We bred many , many litters I would agree we would have to limit and even cull for things that we now are able to incorporate and manage with each pup we have ever produced.  There is a breeder in the South who may have as many as 6 litters at a time !!! Yilkes. This person rarely culls because she is able to sell , there by make a buck off of any puppy produced.  By selling with a rather pitiful contract this breeder puts dogs who should NEVER be bred out in the world with zero follow up.   And yes I have had her puppy folk call and ask to use my stud or to lease a girl because They want to make the money back on the dog !!  Ay Yi Yi the head ache and the hours spent trying  to educate these folks.

     

    If I was breeding my hound for the Scent side ( we are classified both sight and scent) and I choose to ignore and use a dog with smallish  terrier ears,  or flews that were very tight how could I fullfill the desired result? If I wanted to push for the sight hound and rather than working with a dog who's eye was not simply strong in color and shape but skip the Cerf then how could I hold my head up and think this is a dog who will be able to hunt or course by sight???  In our most recent litter we wanted to improve one thing and one thing only I wanted more upper arm, This is essential for reach and drive and for a dog who was engineered to run all day acrossed the veldt . Our dogs should ...fingers crossed , if the prey drive is as sound as it always has been be champion lure coursers, solid and fast, intelligent which will be our major down fall since RRs love to cheat at the bunny!  

    A Pet Breeder does NOT invest the heavy monies into the program to clear the dogs on hips, elbows, patellas, Baer, Thyroid,Cerf, Cardiac... then add the finishing and socialization , then cross train and not just knee jerk the top dog for breeding but actually spend enormous time working the pedigrees and establishing a relationship with the breeders you are working with. In a recently annouced frozen litter thhe breeder spared no expense, had 12 puppies, 7 with show ridges, 1 flawed ridge and 4 ridgeless.... there is a huge waiting list for the pets out of this breeding as the dam and sire were beyond wonderful.  Less than 12 years and therer would have been 5 dead puppies.

    BUT an ETHICAL breeder has to understand the "target home or family has a specific desire.  If you are wanting an elegant well bred dog with as great a health profile as possible to live with you, grow with your family and adore you then YOUR Ethical breeder has to do all of the tests I mentioned above,  talk for hours with you and then know .....the puppy !! If this one is a hugely prey driven hound then a family who wants an adoring family pet is going to have HUGE challenges !! If you have a very active owner who is motivated to agility or ??? Then please why would an ethical breeder take a puppy who is  the ulitmate couch hound and say Here ya go???  In all of these with the exception of a health issue very little that folk used to cull for would have any , I mean any point in making the perfect pup. Only in conformation and Lure Coursing will ridgelessness be an issue and again if a family wants a devoted hound how can a cosmetic issue be the end of the world? Last but not least culling is final. Period.  In the 80's many breeders HATED to see Liver noses pop up in a litter. Acceptable but at the time harder to place. They later realized the livers helped keep the glorious red color in our breed or all of them would be golden to very pale wheaten.  My girl Born in the realy 90's when finishing a Liver took twice the money and work went on to be my foundation dam and my seizure alert dog. Only 10 years earlier and no one would have blinlked had she been culled for being difficult to finish or place.

    Ethics and beliefs can NOT be designed for you.  YOU have to develope what , where and why  and at the very end of your years in your program YOU have to be able to look in the mirror and know..did YOU do the breed harm or did you make a contribution??

    Bonita of Bwana

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Oh, here is another fly in the ointment.

    What is the age limit on culling (specifically, the killing/PTS/euthanizing) of a dog?

    There are breeders,(and trainers) who cull adolecent to adult dogs (and beyond) for behavior issues, aren't there?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Angelique

    Oh, here is another fly in the ointment.

    What is the age limit on culling (specifically, the killing/PTS/euthanizing) of a dog?

    There are breeders,(and trainers) who cull adolecent to adult dogs (and beyond) for behavior issues, aren't there?

    sadly there is NO "age limit"   just a change in vocabulary. Normally culling is considered to be the removal of a faulted whelp ( meaning under a week or so) However it is acceptable to cull an older puppy , normally because a severe health issue has been discovered at a later date.  IE puppy is now 4 -5 weeks old and that cleft palate that they hoped was so tiny it would close has done the reverse.  Or it develops strangles, wobbles, or a hundred of other things that you simply can not control. Breeding is NOT for sissies. The choices a breeder must make are beyond difficult.

    In an older dog you are euthanizing, PTS , what ever term is acceptable to you. It is not culling when you take an older dog and put it down for health or temperament issues.  This animal could be surgically culled, S/N to remove it from any possible breeding program . To put it down then try to call it culling is not something I have ever heard a breeder or trainer say, but I have only been in dogs for 51 years, and rrs for 27 this month so I could be wrong...Wink

    Bonita of Bwana 

     

    • Gold Top Dog

         I have to agree, there is no age limit for culling. However, it's most commonly done with pups when speaking about euthanizing. But in my breed, for instance, a major reason for traditional culling is when a dog has no hunt. That is the most serious a fault in this breed, it's simply not a Beagle if it can't track a hare properly and bring it to a gun. The hunters that cull, while I would personally neuter the dog, are well justified in their decision to cull. Many hunters cannot afford to neuter and keep the dog until a suitable home is found ... this is when we see Beagles on the side of the road, or dead/dying in the middle of the road :( I would much rather the breeder owned up to his responsibilities and ended the dog's life immediately and w/o causing a second of stress or needless suffering. Ultimately, when culled, the breed wins, as do pet owners. There are less dogs clogging up shelters, and less genetic junk in the hands of the public.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Angelique

    Chuffy

    Good post - and round we go again, back to the "elitist" subject that started it and why PET owners should not breed!   

    I agree, and some pet owners shouldn't breed their dogs either.

     

    You got me ha ha!